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Brave New World banned from High School curriculum

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Re: Brave New World banned from High School curriculum

#121

Post by amalcon »

roel_v wrote: post #66

I realize the 'ban' is because of the Native American/savages angle, but now that the book comes up I'd like to ask: I read Brave New World expecting a dystopic society, but failed to understand why the world that is described is dystopic. Huxley seems to go out of his way to ascribe all sorts of pejorative attributes to the society in the book, to the point where the promiscuous sex lives of the inhabitants are pres…

The dystopia is in that it's become not so much a society as a machine. A cog is not discontented with its position in a machine, but much like the cog, it's difficult to truly consider the people in Brave New World alive.

I know it's a bit of a value judgment, but while happiness is hardly something to look down on, I find it difficult to believe that it's the only end worth pursuing.

Re: Brave New World banned from High School curriculum

#122

Post by FnewscorpintheA »

roel_v wrote: post #117
Goronmon wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read Brave New World expecting a dystopic society, but failed to understand why the world that is described is dystopic. I'll quote a passage from the Wikipedia article on it that expresses just one frightening aspect of the society described in the book. Natural reproduction has been done away with and children are created, 'decanted' and raised in Hatcheries and Conditioning Centres, where they are divided into f…

The book also explicitly describes that these castes are perfectly happy being who they are. They are happy and proud to be in their caste and have no desires to be in another caste. All inhabitants are happy and feel at place in life. So now where's the problem? Is there an inherent moral evil in social strata, when those people have no desire for class mobility ? I mean I'm all in favor of letting and encouraging p…

Really? Everyone is only where they want to be because they doused you in brain-retarding chemicals as a fetus... you fail to see to see the moral wrong in that?

Re: Brave New World banned from High School curriculum

#123

Post by Anechoic »

NathanKP wrote: post #20
alanh wrote: post #8

> What Sense-Wilson and her daughter seem to be having trouble grasping is that the "savages" in the book are only called "savages" because the mainstream society which they aren't a part of is so perverted. In reality, Huxley's savages are indeed the heroes… Indeed. The “savage” reads Shakespeare, which no one else in the book does anymore, for example. It’s just like people wanting to ban Huck Finn because it uses…

It seems to me that in case such as this the ones who ban the book haven't really read it. Anyone who reads "Brave New World" and actually thinks about it will see its true message, and anyone who reads "Huck Finn" and actually thinks about it won't find its use of the word "nigger" objectionable. The problem is that it is easier to jump to a conclusion than it is to stop and think.

> anyone who reads "Huck Finn" and actually thinks about it won't find its use of the word "nigger" objectionable.

I've read Huck Finn (and Tom Sawyer) as required in high school. I am also black. As a product of it's day, I understand the context in which the language is being used but that didn't make it any less demeaning and frankly the only effect it had on me was to make me not want to read any more Mark Twain works. Requiring me to read these works and expecting me to appreciate its message is a lot like saying you should admire the boxing skills of the mugger who's beating you up.

I am perfectly fine with allowing students to study these works on their own or to write reports on them, but I don't think students should be required to read them.

Re: Brave New World banned from High School curriculum

#124

Post by roel_v »

amalcon wrote: post #121
roel_v wrote: post #66

I realize the 'ban' is because of the Native American/savages angle, but now that the book comes up I'd like to ask: I read Brave New World expecting a dystopic society, but failed to understand why the world that is described is dystopic. Huxley seems to go out of his way to ascribe all sorts of pejorative attributes to the society in the book, to the point where the promiscuous sex lives of the inhabitants are pres…

The dystopia is in that it's become not so much a society as a machine . A cog is not discontented with its position in a machine, but much like the cog, it's difficult to truly consider the people in Brave New World alive. I know it's a bit of a value judgment, but while happiness is hardly something to look down on, I find it difficult to believe that it's the only end worth pursuing.

I guess I agree partly with the last part, but then what others are? Does being unhappy make one be alive? Does being discontent? Or is there moral virtue in the 'natural' state of things, not being changed by human intervention; is it the fact the happiness is made in the book, not by the happy person him or herself, but by 'the machine', the society? If so, shouldn't we stop all state intervention that tries to improve citizen's lives?

I guess that I understand the gut feeling of uneasiness with the society presented in the book. It's that I can't find a rational explanation for it that bugs me. (one could do this one away by dismissing the value of rationality, but that I don't want to do - it's a value judgment too there, but one I hope people on here would understand and agree with).

Re: Brave New World banned from High School curriculum

#125

Post by Benjo »

roel_v wrote: post #117
Goronmon wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read Brave New World expecting a dystopic society, but failed to understand why the world that is described is dystopic. I'll quote a passage from the Wikipedia article on it that expresses just one frightening aspect of the society described in the book. Natural reproduction has been done away with and children are created, 'decanted' and raised in Hatcheries and Conditioning Centres, where they are divided into f…

The book also explicitly describes that these castes are perfectly happy being who they are. They are happy and proud to be in their caste and have no desires to be in another caste. All inhabitants are happy and feel at place in life. So now where's the problem? Is there an inherent moral evil in social strata, when those people have no desire for class mobility ? I mean I'm all in favor of letting and encouraging p…

Everyone in BNW is effectively programmed at birth. The system seems designed to suppress innovation, which many value highly. It could be argued that unhappiness drives innovation, productivity and progress, in much the same way profit motive does.

My desire to be a productive person stems from my experiences with short term happiness. No matter how many movies, video games or hobbies I enjoy in the short term, I will eventually feel a lack of deeper fulfillment if I don't accomplish something significant.

The happiness offered by the system in BNW seems to provide only this fleeting happiness without addressing the longer term "contented" style of happiness. I think this is what people react negatively to. It is hard to imagine a "cheat" to fulfillment because so many people spend their lives searching for it unsuccessfully.

The characters in BNW have apparently been modified or conditioned to lack this drive. Or their drive has been subverted to meet the goals of society. Whether you think this type of happiness can or should be provided artificially is up to you.

Re: Brave New World banned from High School curriculum

#126

Post by ntownsend »

roel_v wrote: post #117
Goronmon wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read Brave New World expecting a dystopic society, but failed to understand why the world that is described is dystopic. I'll quote a passage from the Wikipedia article on it that expresses just one frightening aspect of the society described in the book. Natural reproduction has been done away with and children are created, 'decanted' and raised in Hatcheries and Conditioning Centres, where they are divided into f…

The book also explicitly describes that these castes are perfectly happy being who they are. They are happy and proud to be in their caste and have no desires to be in another caste. All inhabitants are happy and feel at place in life. So now where's the problem? Is there an inherent moral evil in social strata, when those people have no desire for class mobility ? I mean I'm all in favor of letting and encouraging p…

I had very similar thoughts when I read the book. It seems to me that if there is no desire for class mobility then strata are not evil.

However, humans being what they are, it seems impossible to guarantee that lack of desire. This is (kind of) demonstrated by Bernard's discontent and by John the Savage's inability to cope with the society. Both were weak cases. Bernard because he was privileged, and John because he was a total outsider that was not acclimated to the culture.

Re: Brave New World banned from High School curriculum

#127

Post by malandrew »

bmunro wrote: post #102
malandrew wrote: post #60

best comment on the article: "Brave New World takes place in London... I'm left wondering how many Native American reservations are near London, England."

But it doesn't take place entirely in London. The reservation is in New Mexico. Two of the characters go on a trip there and meet a white man that lives among the native americans, but is not fully accepted by them. TThe above is just another comment by someone that does not appear to have read the book.

Now that you mention that, I remember the book a bit better. I personally need to re-read it. It was so long ago and although I liked the book a lot, the experience was spoilt by English Lit class.

Catch22 is another I remember only vaguely but need to reread.

Re: Brave New World banned from High School curriculum

#128

Post by Goronmon »

roel_v wrote: post #117
Goronmon wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read Brave New World expecting a dystopic society, but failed to understand why the world that is described is dystopic. I'll quote a passage from the Wikipedia article on it that expresses just one frightening aspect of the society described in the book. Natural reproduction has been done away with and children are created, 'decanted' and raised in Hatcheries and Conditioning Centres, where they are divided into f…

The book also explicitly describes that these castes are perfectly happy being who they are. They are happy and proud to be in their caste and have no desires to be in another caste. All inhabitants are happy and feel at place in life. So now where's the problem? Is there an inherent moral evil in social strata, when those people have no desire for class mobility ? I mean I'm all in favor of letting and encouraging p…

Everyone is happy and proud to be in their caste because their brains have been programmed to be happy and proud about their status in life.

Does slavery become alright as long as you brainwash slaves into thinking they are content?

Re: Brave New World banned from High School curriculum

#129

Post by jbooth »

roel_v wrote: post #124
amalcon wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The dystopia is in that it's become not so much a society as a machine . A cog is not discontented with its position in a machine, but much like the cog, it's difficult to truly consider the people in Brave New World alive. I know it's a bit of a value judgment, but while happiness is hardly something to look down on, I find it difficult to believe that it's the only end worth pursuing.

I guess I agree partly with the last part, but then what others are? Does being unhappy make one be alive? Does being discontent? Or is there moral virtue in the 'natural' state of things, not being changed by human intervention; is it the fact the happiness is made in the book, not by the happy person him or herself, but by 'the machine', the society? If so, shouldn't we stop all state intervention that tries to imp…

Yeah, discontent definitely means being alive. If you're fat, dumb and happy to the extreme degree portrayed in the book, then you're going to live a worthless life from the perspective of any individual creativity or accomplishment.

Re: Brave New World banned from High School curriculum

#130

Post by fogus »

jameskilton wrote: post #7
tomjen3 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People don't know what literary value is - since they read so few books, how could they possible know what it is?

Aye, the irony here is sickening. And that a single parent who obviously hasn't actually read a book in ages is able to negatively affect an entire school board that easily is sad beyond measure. Sometimes people are wrong. In fact it happens a lot. Apparently calling someone out for being wrong is as bad as calling someone out for being fat. Can't have controversy! Huxley is spinning in his grave.

> Huxley is spinning in his grave.

Huxley was cremated.

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