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Why We Dominate the Earth

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121–130 of 135 posts

Re: Why We Dominate the Earth

#121
"There is no parallel in other species for these quick, large-scale shifts. General behavior patterns in dogs or fish or ants change due to a change in environment, or to broad genetic evolution over a period of time."

Aha! This passage made me realize why we can't seem to get a grip on, for example, climate change (but also that we soon, easily could). Humans can undergo a quick, large-scale shift in behavior having nothing to do with an environmental change; therefore it's also true that humans can staunchly and stubbornly adhere to the same behavior, despite an environmental change.

Re: Why We Dominate the Earth

#122
There are many problems with the thesis that sapiens is oh but so special (and of "special" being good).

One is that our species is at least 100,000 years old, most probably 200,000 and possibly a million years old. Yet, culture, history and "world dominance" only happened very recently. Why did it take so long?

Another is that there were many "sapiens" species and they went extinct, either because we exterminated them, or nature did, or we absorbed them by cross-breeding. Being cognitive is no guaranty of success and even, it turns out, no protection from extermination.

Yet another is that other species have language (dolphins for instance, which are neither "dogs" or "fish" or "ants").

And finally, talking of our "success" is the most ironic way of putting it, since we're in the process of destroying all mammal life on earth (including us). Maybe ants "eat our garbage" but they are likely to survive us, unlike anyone who's reading this.

Re: Why We Dominate the Earth

#123
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Social construct is closer to what he talks about. As for why he had to use a non standard formulation for this ... I believe it's marketing.

I actually like the way he uses "intersubjective truth"(on a spectrum with "objective truth" and "subjective truth) to describe things that are only true because enough people agree that they're true.

We’re being seduced into believing in social constructs. His language is much more palatable.

For the record, I’m fine with it.

Re: Why We Dominate the Earth

#124

> Surprisingly, it’s not our shared language or even our ability to dominate other species that defines us but rather, our shared fictions. I read his book where he talks about this. It makes some sense: you can operate at varied scales if you have shared fictions. When you meet a complete stranger, you're both members of the human race, sharing a desire for a better future. Meet a fellow countryman, and there are so…

I find the term "shared fiction" just doesn't convey it adequately, at least in English.

Fiction is a loaded word that says "not real" where maybe shared truths, shared beliefs (in the sense of the Greek: hupostasis rather than pisteuo) would be better.

We can conceptualise and communicate about thing that are immaterial like trust, honor and promises.

Re: Why We Dominate the Earth

#125
post #70

It's kind of revisionist to consider the last 60 years (if we're generous) but more like 10 years as proof that intelligent beings got there through some massive amount of cooperation across borders and beyond close-knit groups >>Sapiens can cooperate in extremely flexible ways with countless numbers of strangers. Human intelligence has been around a lot longer than a few decades and for the vast vast majority of tha…

Trade routes have demonstrated cooperation across vast areas for thousands of years. This is not selfless cooperation, but was dependent on multiple nations and cultures.

Cooperation, until the next war started.

Re: Why We Dominate the Earth

#126
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Humanity may win here, but you should be careful about how you define it. Individual humans don't control much more of our environment than animals do. Like animals in a zoo, we are often born into very constrained situations that wildly limit our actual control. We are usually caged by our economic situation. What I'm saying is, the "human" does not dominate the earth. The corporation does. We shouldn't be afraid of…

Tell that to the folks who invented agriculture. We were shaping the planet long before corporations existed. It's amazing how some people can turn any discussion into some version of a discussion on /r/LateStageCapitalism.

> Tell that to the folks who invented agriculture.

Are you sure that agriculture isn't just grain's way of domesticating humans ;)

Re: Why We Dominate the Earth

#127
post #31

I saw an interesting, related theory in an ecology book I read recently. Most native peoples were very in tune withe the earth (Pagan Europe, Native American tribes, Hindu India, Tribal Africa, Aboriginal Australia, etc). The rise of Abrahamic religion, with man as the most important creature on the planet and everything on earth created for man, is a factor for why we "dominate" the earth.

>Most native peoples were very in tune withe the earth (Pagan Europe, Native American tribes, Hindu India, Tribal Africa, Aboriginal Australia, etc). The reason there were so many bison in the US when the settlers arrived is that the native Americans had already hunted the rest of the megafauna to extinction. While I think there is a kernel of truth to your comment, I also think the premise that primitive people's we…

> primitive people

The only indigenous population I know about in any detail is that of my nation (Australia). They were far from "primitive", rather constituted an unimaginably ancient continent-wide civilisation.

> native Americans had already hunted the rest of the megafauna to extinction

Again, speaking for the Aus equivalent: there's an arguable case that descendants of the original settlers arriving across the PNG land bridge may have caused species extinctions. Given what we know of H. Sapiens, it's pretty likely.

But that has little to do with the indigenous Australians who the European invaders encountered. By this time they had undergone 40-60,000 years of cultural and social development. By this advanced stage they had an extraordinarily detailed understanding of the ecologies they lived in and managed. The "in tune with nature" phrase is not to my taste, but if any population could be described this way, it was them.

> The truth is more likely that being "in tune" with nature was simply a matter of survival

Well this assumes they were not true human cultures, a hallmark of which is rarely doing anything only for survival. All known human cultures have myths and institutions, beliefs, roles and manners of life woven deeply with all the acts that also happen to perform survival functions. It's a bit of a dehumanising stance to expunge everything but the survival aspect. It's also not a stance that ever withstands even a modicum of familiarity with any real human culture.

Re: Why We Dominate the Earth

#128
post #84

Reading the book right now. What's concerning to me is that we are currently seeing the dissolving of myths across the board, whether it be religion, faith in public institutions, or facades that we kept before social media existed. Is the breakdown of social cohesion a consequence? Letting go of myths seems like an inherent good, but can we survive it?

You should check out RS Bakker or Peter Watts. https://rsbakker.wordpress.com/ https://www.rifters.com/

bakker has some thoughts of his own on harari:

https://rsbakker.wordpress.com/2016/10/20/visions-of-the-sem...

https://rsbakker.wordpress.com/2018/08/11/were-fucked-so-now...

> The biological origins of narrative lie in shallow information cognitive ecologies, circumstances characterized by profound ignorance. What we cannot grasp we poke with sticks. Hitherto we’ve been able to exapt these capacities to great effect, raising a civilization that would make our story-telling ancestors weep, and for wonder far more than horror. But as with all heuristic systems, something must be taken for granted. Only so much can be changed before an ecology collapses altogether. And now we stand on the cusp of a communicative revolution even more profound than literacy, a proliferation, not simply of alternate narratives, but of alternate narrators.

> If you sweep the workbench clean, cease looking at meaning as something somehow ‘anomalous’ or ‘transcendent,’ narrative becomes a matter of super-complicated systems, things that can be cut short by a heart attack or stroke. If you refuse to relinquish the meat (which is to say nature), then narratives, like any other biological system, require that particular background conditions obtain. Scranton’s error, in effect, is a more egregious version of the error Harari makes in Homo Deus, the default presumption that meaning somehow lies outside the circuit of ecology. Harari, recall, realizes that humanism, the ‘man-the-meaning-maker’ narrative of Western civilization, is doomed, but his low-dimensional characterization of the ‘intersubjective web of meaning’ as an ‘intermediate level of reality’ convinces him that some other collective narrative must evolve to take its place. He fails to see how the technologies he describes are actively replacing the ancestral social coordinating functions of narrative.

Re: Why We Dominate the Earth

#129
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trade routes have demonstrated cooperation across vast areas for thousands of years. This is not selfless cooperation, but was dependent on multiple nations and cultures.

Cooperation, until the next war started.

Wars would often not interrupt trade routes. It’s a revenue source, so each side would want trade to continue such that they could get revenue from it.

Re: Why We Dominate the Earth

#130
post #90
post #89

Define "dominate". IMHO bacteria dominate the Earth, but of course, they don't know. They don't even need to know to dominate.

>dom·i·nate >verb >have a commanding influence on; exercise control over. >be the most important or conspicuous person or thing in. Bacteria have a huge effect on all life, but they don't "exercise control" as they are not self aware. Their influence is comprised solely of externalities. Humans by comparison exert far more control over the environment around them. We shape the world to our purpose. I think humanity w…

Sorry, I absolutely do not agree.

1) They do exercise control, self-aware or not. Your guts' bacteria control what you can eat or not. The environment bacteria control what diseases you can get and even if live or die. The bacteria decide what chemicals are to stay in the air or not, even what chemicals are released in the air, including the most extremely deadly toxins we know about (e.g. botulin, anthrax...).

2) Humans definitely do not exert far more control over the environment around them. You're talking about building and modifying the environment. Bacteria directly decide if there can be life or not in an environment, and even which forms can be alive or not. What nutrients will be available. What the air, water and earth chemical composition is going to be. Besides, many bacterias are apex predators. They do shape everything to fit their "wishes", even including human behavior since they make up 50% of your body, and that without counting the mitochondrion. So whatever we actually do as humans "controlling" the environment does not even come close to what bacteria control.

3) And finally, we can't get rid of all bacteria, ever, mainly because that would kill us as well. They could easily kill us all whenever they want to, and they won't even notice.

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