Live data from Hacker News

Germany plans €3B in AI investments

reuters.com

121–130 of 161 posts

Re: Germany plans €3B in AI investments

#121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The contract says you're not entitled to compensation for overtime. As far as the law is concerned, I see no problem here whatsoever. You don't. The Bundesarbeitsgericht (the highest court for labor disputes) does: https://juris.bundesarbeitsgericht.de/cgi-bin/rechtsprechung... You can include clauses that allow limited unpaid overtime, for example "36 hours per week and up to 16 hours of unpaid overtime per month"…

If you actually look at the court case, the guy won because the contract was unclear on its terms, not because such terms are inadmissable in general. That's why the lower court didn't decide in his favor. The decision doesn't generalize across all contracts. > You can include clauses that allow limited unpaid overtime, for example "36 hours per week and up to 16 hours of unpaid overtime per month", but then, as an e…

> If you actually look at the court case, the guy won because the contract was unclear on its terms, not because such terms are inadmissable in general.

They are. Quote from the courts press release:

> Der vertragliche Ausschluss jeder zusätzlichen Vergütung von Mehrarbeit war wegen Intransparenz nach § 307 Abs. 1 Satz 2 BGB unwirksam.

§307 Abs. 1 Satz 2 is "Unangemessene Benachteiligung" (see https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/bgb/__307.html), a lopsided clause that favors one party of the contract, usually the stronger party.

The court ruled that the terms are unclear because it is not known to the employee how many hours he might have to work for his wage. A clause stipulating unlimited unoaid overtime can never fulfill that requirement. Thus unlimited overtime is inadmissible in the general case, except for the cases I listed previously.

The relevant quote from the ruling (which is linked from the courts press release) is:

"a) Die Parteien haben zwar in Tz. 4.4. des Arbeitsvertrags bestimmt, dass der Kläger für Über- und Mehrarbeit keine gesonderte Vergütung erhalte. Diese Regelung ist jedoch nach § 307 Abs. 1 Satz 1 BGB unwirksam, weil sie nicht klar und verständlich ist, § 307 Abs. 1 Satz 2 BGB."

and

"Eine die pauschale Vergütung von Überstunden regelnde Klausel ist nur dann klar und verständlich, wenn sich aus dem Arbeitsvertrag selbst ergibt, welche Arbeitsleistungen in welchem zeitlichen Umfang von ihr erfasst werden sollen. Der Arbeitnehmer muss bereits bei Vertragsschluss erkennen können, was gegebenenfalls „auf ihn zukommt“ und welche Leistung er für die vereinbarte Vergütung maximal erbringen muss (BAG 1. September 2010 - 5 AZR 517/09 - Rn. 15 mwN, BAGE 135, 250; 17. August 2011 - 5 AZR 406/10 - Rn. 14 mwN, EzA BGB 2002 § 612 Nr. 10)."

> > You can include clauses that allow limited unpaid overtime, for example "36 hours per week and up to 16 hours of unpaid overtime per month", but then, as an employee, you should treat that as a 40 hours contract.

> That's besides the point. The question is, is that paid overtime? If you ask me, it isn't because any extra hour worked doesn't translate into extra money.

That's why I said "if your contract stipulates unpaid overtime, treat is as part of your regular work time." If you get to work less, fine, but assume you have to work the maximum time stipulated in the contract. (weekly time plus max overtime)

> from what I read in other places, it seems commonplace.

I'd not call it commonplace, but in some areas it's not uncommon. It's still inadmissible in most cases, but as I said before, people don't sue so companies don't learn their lesson.

Re: Germany plans €3B in AI investments

#122
post #94
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think that Munich has generally better culture in this industry? I don't even mean startups, just asking in general.

Munich is generally not as open to foreigners as Berlin. Even more foreigners are in Frankfurt, but most hate living there, despite getting a funding is much easier than in Berlin/Munich - it's fun to see ICOs popping up there 1 year after they were relevant, so if you follow US trends, you can apply them without much effort over there a year later and be celebrated for copying some already well-known idea.

> Munich is generally not as open to foreigners as Berlin

I'm sorry you're getting downvoted, because you're completely right.

Re: Germany plans €3B in AI investments

#123
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Munich is generally not as open to foreigners as Berlin. Even more foreigners are in Frankfurt, but most hate living there, despite getting a funding is much easier than in Berlin/Munich - it's fun to see ICOs popping up there 1 year after they were relevant, so if you follow US trends, you can apply them without much effort over there a year later and be celebrated for copying some already well-known idea.

I disagree. The companies in my network (anecdotal evidence) are full with international people. In our office we have nationals from 13 countries. This is the most diverse environment that I have ever seen (including San Francisco). There are some companies however who are hiring strictly Germans, just like with anything else the market will correct these mistakes. This is not the norm but the exception though. I am…

> The companies in my network (anecdotal evidence) are full with international people. In our office we have nationals from 13 countries. This is the most diverse environment that I have ever seen (including San Francisco)

I'll probably get downvoted for saying this, but it's important enough that I need to: country of origin is a completely meaningless way to measure diversity. Especially in Europe, where most countries are comparable to the size of individual states in the US and are relatively racially homogeneous, national origin doesn't measure anything meaningful.

The problem with Munich is that, like Bavaria as a whole[0], it is incredibly racist. Specifically, if you look Muslim, Arab, or Middle Eastern, you're in for a really rough time. This shouldn't be too surprising if you look at recent trends in German politics, and specifically in Bavarian politics.

I wouldn't hold Berlin up as a gold standard here by any means, but it's far better than either Frankfurt or Munich in this regard.

[0] less so than the rest of Bavaria, but more so than any other comparable city in Germany

Re: Germany plans €3B in AI investments

#124
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can work out well and it can fail. While experiments like Japan's fifth generation computer may have failed to produce commercial results, it still trained a generation of very able scientists. Without the significant spending of the US government, the Silicon Valley would not exist in its current form either. During a time when software and hardware applications had no large market, the military and the governmen…

> It can work out well and it can fail. No, it will fail, as every German project of this kind failed. Someone will get rich, the project will close after some years. The overrated Germany is socialism 2.0.

I am German and I can definitely tell you that I am not living in socialism right now.

Re: Germany plans €3B in AI investments

#125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you actually look at the court case, the guy won because the contract was unclear on its terms, not because such terms are inadmissable in general. That's why the lower court didn't decide in his favor. The decision doesn't generalize across all contracts. > You can include clauses that allow limited unpaid overtime, for example "36 hours per week and up to 16 hours of unpaid overtime per month", but then, as an e…

> If you actually look at the court case, the guy won because the contract was unclear on its terms, not because such terms are inadmissable in general. They are. Quote from the courts press release: > Der vertragliche Ausschluss jeder zusätzlichen Vergütung von Mehrarbeit war wegen Intransparenz nach § 307 Abs. 1 Satz 2 BGB unwirksam. §307 Abs. 1 Satz 2 is "Unangemessene Benachteiligung" (see https://www.gesetze-im-…

I don't understand what you're disagreeing with exactly. I say "unpaid overtime" appears to be legal. I didn't say "unlimited unpaid overtime".

From everything you quoted, "unpaid overtime" is legal as long as it's clearly transparent from the contract and it's within other laws restricting the amount of hours total. Unpaid overtime is statistically common as per the other sources I linked to.

Obviously, if unpaid overtime clauses were clearly and entirely illegal, the lowest court would've immediately ruled in favor of the plaintiff, not against him.

Re: Germany plans €3B in AI investments

#126
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry but why Berlin? Munich has several very successful startups and excellent engineering community with serious investors and companies who can be either clients or potential purchasers of these startups. Why do you chose Berlin as a representative of German startup scene? I know they had some success but there is so much more in Germany. goo.gl/uPLVMy https://www.eu-startups.com/tag/munich/

Hardware startups => Munich Software startups => Berlin As this thread is (mostly) about investments in AI, which in the German startup scene has been happening more in Berlin than in Munich AFAIK, it's not a understandable choice. Also as Munichs startup scene is younger, there have been less exits, so "success" is something the jury is still out on.

Engineering Startup => Karlsruhe

Re: Germany plans €3B in AI investments

#127

Germany is still not allowed to have an offensive army, so it makes a lot of sense to at least stay first class in tech, and in AI, in order to stay relevant as a world leader for the future.

The Bundeswehr ist plenty offensive. Their tacky ads that compare war to computer games ("never fight alone!" -- like, don't just play games alone, join the Bundeswehr) are enough.

Re: Germany plans €3B in AI investments

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. The companies in my network (anecdotal evidence) are full with international people. In our office we have nationals from 13 countries. This is the most diverse environment that I have ever seen (including San Francisco). There are some companies however who are hiring strictly Germans, just like with anything else the market will correct these mistakes. This is not the norm but the exception though. I am…

> The companies in my network (anecdotal evidence) are full with international people. In our office we have nationals from 13 countries. This is the most diverse environment that I have ever seen (including San Francisco) I'll probably get downvoted for saying this, but it's important enough that I need to: country of origin is a completely meaningless way to measure diversity. Especially in Europe, where most count…

>Especially in Europe, where most countries are comparable to the size of individual states in the US

I understand what you are saying, but having travelled around the US, mostly for business but some for pleasure, there are remarkable and under-appreciated differences among the states. I would go so far as to say that my state, Washington, and its neighboring Canadian province of British Columbia, have more in common culturally, socially, and economically than say, Washington state and Florida. Within Germany itself, which is approximately the size of Oregon, I found that there are also significant religious, cultural, and linguistic differences even still today. So I'm not sure that we can easily discard the differences that come from borders or geography, even within a small area.

Silly case in point - it's been a few years, but you go to Frankfurt and ask for an alt beer, you get served. You ask for an alt beer in Munich, you get funny looks.

Re: Germany plans €3B in AI investments

#129
post #112
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UK and Germany are also the countries with highest salaries if you don't count Scandinavia. Try to go to Poland or Czechia thats german border countries where the salaries are even much lower. Then again salaries in europe just work in very different way.

UK and Switzerland only. Germany is traditionally a low-wage country.

You mean London and Switzerland. Excepting London, the UK on average is even more low wage than Germany, to reuse your expression. But London, just like Switzerland has an impossible property market if you want o buy something no matter how well you're paid.

Re: Germany plans €3B in AI investments

#130
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A typical Berlin startup: - hires devs with extremely low salaries - gives 0.004% equity at best - is run by people that are "better than anybody else" - expects constant overtime and 24/7 employee reachability - has managers with issues saying "thank you" - hires friends/family to higher echelons of company Does this sound like a recipe for success?

OK, so let's talk about what we, a Berlin startup that I co-founded, do offer: - fair salaries for the experience and attitude - no equity, because we believe that a fair salary is better than a lottery equity - we don't expect people to work overtime and value work-life balance a lot - we say thank you A LOT - we hire people who are the best fit for the job And since we're talking about this: we're hiring a software…

[deleted]
Post reply on HN