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Google's censored Chinese search engine: a catalogue of ethical violations?

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Re: Google's censored Chinese search engine: a catalogue of ethical violations?

#121

Post by NeedMoreTea »

sheepmullet wrote: post #120
dnomad wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At the risk of sounding nationalistic, I think companies in the United States and other democratic countries should reconsider any and all business relationships with authoritarian regimes like those in China and Russia. It just sounds stupid. Looking at the situation rationally it is the US that has in just the last 20 years (a) attacked several countries and murdered hundreds of thousands of innocent people and (…

> the US that has in just the last 20 years (a) attacked several countries and murdered hundreds of thousands of innocent people Where do you get your anti-US propaganda from? I think the combined civilian death toll by US forces in Afghanistan and Iraq is ~40,000. That’s not a good number - but it’s a long way away from hundreds of thousands.

Wikipedia perhaps?

"Credible estimates of Iraq War casualties range from 151,000 violent deaths as of June 2006 to 461,000 total deaths as of June 2011"

Re: Google's censored Chinese search engine: a catalogue of ethical violations?

#122

Post by cm2187 »

eigenvector wrote: post #86

A common refrain that you will likely soon hear from Google executives and board members is that it's better to have access to a censored Google than no Google at all. The problem is that when Google took a stance against censorship, users behind the Great Firewall or other censorship regimes knew that if they managed to reach www.google.com through VPN or other means they were getting uncensored results. Now, no one…

But where does censorship starts? Google already have to comply with local laws everywhere it operates. Is the right to be forgotten censorship? Is removing piratebay from the listing censorship? Or does it have to do with anything that offends a US liberal political stance? Then is Google’s mission really meant to be a propaganda tool for a particular political viewpoint?

Re: Google's censored Chinese search engine: a catalogue of ethical violations?

#123

Post by camillomiller »

ansy wrote: post #45

At the risk of sounding nationalistic, I think companies in the United States and other democratic countries should reconsider any and all business relationships with authoritarian regimes like those in China and Russia. And I say regimes because most "companies" in these countries are really just instruments of the state. There may be money to be made, but not only are companies like Google tightening these authorit…

In a capitalistic world, returns on capital are worth more than ethical principles. Embargo only works towards states that wouldn’t present an incredible opportunity for pushing the sick metric of growth we all have to play along with

Re: Google's censored Chinese search engine: a catalogue of ethical violations?

#124

Post by Yizahi »

mstaoru wrote: post #98

For once, I am on Google's side with this one. Somewhat of a discourse. In the last years, "China and Russia" became a new racist norm against anything and everything there. My mom and dad are absolutely against totalitarianism, but their "cardinal sin" is that they were born in Russia and they lack the financial means to move to another country. For years, they can't even buy any good cheese because the cheese was "…

Did they vote for their dictator over last 18 years, alongside with 72% of other supporters? Do they approve extermination of ukrainians by russian armed forces? Do they approve annexation of neighbor territories? In 2008? in 2014?

It is not "racist" if the majority of population supports unethical things.

Re: Google's censored Chinese search engine: a catalogue of ethical violations?

#125

Post by sheepmullet »

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #121
sheepmullet wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the US that has in just the last 20 years (a) attacked several countries and murdered hundreds of thousands of innocent people Where do you get your anti-US propaganda from? I think the combined civilian death toll by US forces in Afghanistan and Iraq is ~40,000. That’s not a good number - but it’s a long way away from hundreds of thousands.

Wikipedia perhaps? "Credible estimates of Iraq War casualties range from 151,000 violent deaths as of June 2006 to 461,000 total deaths as of June 2011"

And did the US murder all of these people?

And are all these people innocent civilians?

Wikipedia has the breakdown.

Re: Google's censored Chinese search engine: a catalogue of ethical violations?

#126

Post by auslander »

throwaway852 wrote: post #97

One thing that really concerns me about Google operating in China and fully complying with their laws is what the effect will be on residents and citizens of Hong Kong, Macau and Taiwan which are under a different legal system from the mainland but which the mainland claims authority over. Will our access to Google eventually be censored and will our data start flowing across the border to the central government?

Why would it apply to Taiwan, sovereign country?

Re: Google's censored Chinese search engine: a catalogue of ethical violations?

#127

Post by sologoub »

ansy wrote: post #45

At the risk of sounding nationalistic, I think companies in the United States and other democratic countries should reconsider any and all business relationships with authoritarian regimes like those in China and Russia. And I say regimes because most "companies" in these countries are really just instruments of the state. There may be money to be made, but not only are companies like Google tightening these authorit…

Can’t speak for China, but in Russia the greatest level of popular political activity in recent times was during the peak of the economic prosperity for the average Russian - circa 2012-2013.

People were actually driving around Moscow with stickers and banners calling the main political party out for corruption and theft of state property/funds.

Then came the sanctions and 50% plunge in value of the currency. Incomes remained nominally the same for most people or were even cut with the pretext of having to deal with economic crisis/sanctions.

The end result was that most people got scared for their livelihood and just went quiet. When you are afraid for your next paycheck and are no longer sure of the future, political dissent becomes a luxury that’s hard to afford.

Leaving the markets and applying economic blockades just makes the situation worse for the people and strengthens the regimes because these are the only beacons of stability they have.

Re: Google's censored Chinese search engine: a catalogue of ethical violations?

#128

Post by macleginn »

mstaoru wrote: post #98

For once, I am on Google's side with this one. Somewhat of a discourse. In the last years, "China and Russia" became a new racist norm against anything and everything there. My mom and dad are absolutely against totalitarianism, but their "cardinal sin" is that they were born in Russia and they lack the financial means to move to another country. For years, they can't even buy any good cheese because the cheese was "…

My parents also live in Russia, but I would prefer setting up a VPN for them over their having to live behind a great information curtain any day. Also after the invasion of Ukraine, indiscriminate bombing of Syria, etc etc, I would personally find myself unable not to implement all kinds of horrible sanctions against the regime, cheese included. Otherwise it would just smack of appeasement policy.

> Google is necessary here to provide the fertile soil on which thinkers can raise and start questioning their political status quo.

No it’s not. Many people are actively questioning the status quo, on all levels, take a recent example: http://chinaheritage.net/journal/imminent-fears-immediate-ho...

Re: Google's censored Chinese search engine: a catalogue of ethical violations?

#129

Post by zaarn »

_iyig wrote: post #7
c3534l wrote: post #2

It's really unfortunate that abiding by local laws and regulations is considered unethical. But even if we assume that there is no legal way for a company to operate ethically in China, is the world meant to close our borders to them entirely? 20% of the planet lives there and we do business with China every day when we buy something manufactured there, but do not feel morally required to boycott them on account of t…

Local laws in East Berlin sanctioned the murder of Germans who sought to escape. Local laws in Vichy France required people to report hidden Jews to the police. Local laws in America under Jim Crow forbade interracial marriage, and denied Blacks their right to vote. Would you consider it unfortunate that some held these local laws to be unethical? I’d ascribe no more legitimacy to similar laws made by an unelected, a…

>Local laws in East Berlin sanctioned the murder of Germans who sought to escape.

The local laws in East Berlin sactions up to 8 years of prison when trying to escape.

Of course, most of the guards at the wall had order to shoot on sight, the number of traps and deadly traps didn't help people survive getting spotted.

The order to shoot on sight (Order 101) actually ran contrary to standing east german law, it was actually illegal (not that the regime actually cared)

Re: Google's censored Chinese search engine: a catalogue of ethical violations?

#130

Post by zavi »

eigenvector wrote: post #86

A common refrain that you will likely soon hear from Google executives and board members is that it's better to have access to a censored Google than no Google at all. The problem is that when Google took a stance against censorship, users behind the Great Firewall or other censorship regimes knew that if they managed to reach www.google.com through VPN or other means they were getting uncensored results. Now, no one…

> Google knows where you live, where you work, where you bank, who you're dating

How do they know who I'm dating?

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