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Facebook Gave Device Makers Deep Access to Data on Users and Friends

nytimes.com

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Re: Facebook Gave Device Makers Deep Access to Data on Users and Friends

#121

Post by readyp1 »

Maarten88 wrote: post #88
arthurofbabylon wrote: post #47

Most notable pieces I took from the article: 1) Facebook does not see third parties (such as BlackBerry) as “third parties.” 2) Facebook told Congress that it disabled third party access to user data, but in actuality did not. My own strong interjection: Facebook’s competitive advantage is its disregard for ethics. Somehow, Zuckerberg has been able to convince a lot of smart people to do unethical things and build un…

And they got the FTC to not really interfere with their practices, even after they were found out. Good luck on net neutrality with the FTC...

Net neutrality isn't FTC's domain. FTC is the Federal TRADE Commission, which handles stuff like mergers of giant companies, the Do Not Call registry, and identity theft; the FCC, the Federal COMMUNICATIONS Commission, handles things like net neutrality, amateur radio licensing, and selling bands of spectrum.

Re: Facebook Gave Device Makers Deep Access to Data on Users and Friends

#122

Post by philipwhiuk »

yk wrote: post #114
chiefalchemist wrote: post #97

Having read (been warned) "Chaos Monkeys" and "Dragnet Nation" this comes as no surprise. https://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/06/29/business/dealbook/revi... https://www.npr.org/books/titles/281981849/dragnet-nation-a-... Editorial: It's startling to me how outfits as reputable as NYT can time and again parrot a narative (e.g., FB is better than sliced bread), and then after the fact report on something that was right un…

> Editorial: It's startling to me how outfits as reputable as NYT can time and again parrot a narative (e.g., FB is better than sliced bread), and then after the fact report on something that was right under their nose all along. That is almost completely a problem of the format of news articles, and that journalists have to write for a lowest common denominator. Take as an example from the NYT article: > Details of…

> the NYT seems to define "third party" as any party that is not Facebook

This is what third party means

Re: Facebook Gave Device Makers Deep Access to Data on Users and Friends

#123

Post by philipwhiuk »

yk wrote: post #114
chiefalchemist wrote: post #97

Having read (been warned) "Chaos Monkeys" and "Dragnet Nation" this comes as no surprise. https://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/06/29/business/dealbook/revi... https://www.npr.org/books/titles/281981849/dragnet-nation-a-... Editorial: It's startling to me how outfits as reputable as NYT can time and again parrot a narative (e.g., FB is better than sliced bread), and then after the fact report on something that was right un…

> Editorial: It's startling to me how outfits as reputable as NYT can time and again parrot a narative (e.g., FB is better than sliced bread), and then after the fact report on something that was right under their nose all along. That is almost completely a problem of the format of news articles, and that journalists have to write for a lowest common denominator. Take as an example from the NYT article: > Details of…

> Note, in the first case FB did constrain the ability of the device makers to access data on the phone, by getting them to sign TOS of the api

That's not a very good constraint.

Re: Facebook Gave Device Makers Deep Access to Data on Users and Friends

#124

Post by philipwhiuk »

damnyou wrote: post #112
jessaustin wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once an app has particular data, there is nothing FB can do to prevent it from uploading that data wherever. It would be difficult for Google or Apple to prevent that, and they control the platform. With enough apps, it is a certainty that this happened.

Have you heard of the power of legally enforceable contracts? Lots of things aren't technically impossible but are forbidden by the law or by a contract. It's one of the ways modern societies function, check it out!

Have you heard of the power of contracts that have never actually been to court. It turns out many of them aren't legally enforceable. It's one of the ways modern society is dysfunctional. Check it out: http://www.ycombinator.com/legal/

Re: Facebook Gave Device Makers Deep Access to Data on Users and Friends

#125

Post by tyrionsrke »

hackinthebochs wrote: post #117

This and the discussion here is obnoxiously bad. Facebook gave some device makers special APIs to access authorized data. This is literally no different than a web API or scraping facebook HTML, just more streamlined. What you guys seem to be objecting to is that non-facebook code was able to interact with authorized user data. But that is a necessary feature of displaying data of any kind (unless facebook owns the e…

You're conflating the issue of informed consent with access ubiquity.

Simply because the data was gathered in a way not unlike most apps, doesn't make it a non-story. In fact, the lack of informed consent and the very misleading statements to Congress make it a huge story.

User data is a commodity, and is worth far more than money. Considering how easily manipulated large portions of the Facebook community can be (e.g. Facebook mood studies, election-year propaganda, etc.), giving access like this to large tech companies - third parties - absolutely needs to be well regulated and come with the informed consent of it's user base.

Not to mention that the policies around turning this data over to other parties -- namely law enforcement -- is different between most of these companies.

The objection is not non-facebook code accessing facebook data. The objection is that, once again, powerful information is being traded and used as leverage to drive profit, with the intent of the buyer or receiver largely unclear, and the impact yet to be seen.

Re: Facebook Gave Device Makers Deep Access to Data on Users and Friends

#126

Post by Latteland »

hackinthebochs wrote: post #117

This and the discussion here is obnoxiously bad. Facebook gave some device makers special APIs to access authorized data. This is literally no different than a web API or scraping facebook HTML, just more streamlined. What you guys seem to be objecting to is that non-facebook code was able to interact with authorized user data. But that is a necessary feature of displaying data of any kind (unless facebook owns the e…

No, you are wrong, this is a pretty egregious mistake. They defined device makers as service providers, and then allowed them to do things that even third parties weren't allowed. Yet they claimed they shut that stuff off to third parties (so they lied by omission). "No, we don't allow third parties anymore to do that kind of stuff" (but there's this large group that can do it, but we aren't calling them third parties). This wasn't just another way to get at the data. The NYT article goes into some detail about what they allowed them to do.

Re: Facebook Gave Device Makers Deep Access to Data on Users and Friends

#127

Post by Latteland »

TAForObvReasons wrote: post #57
arthurofbabylon wrote: post #47

Most notable pieces I took from the article: 1) Facebook does not see third parties (such as BlackBerry) as “third parties.” 2) Facebook told Congress that it disabled third party access to user data, but in actuality did not. My own strong interjection: Facebook’s competitive advantage is its disregard for ethics. Somehow, Zuckerberg has been able to convince a lot of smart people to do unethical things and build un…

> This disregard for ethics has allowed Facebook to “grow at all costs." There's a great phrase for this: "move fast and break things". When you believe it is ok to break small rules and norms, it becomes easier to break larger norms and ethics and rules. This philosophy took SV by storm, but at its core it's always been about disregarding things like laws and ethics, and now we are seeing the world that created.

Move fast and break things means don't be afraid to try things that might fail, but it doesn't mean ethics don't matter. There has long been a concern about what facebook does with people's privacy, now there's no doubt they went way too far.

Re: Facebook Gave Device Makers Deep Access to Data on Users and Friends

#128

Post by goblin89 »

arthurofbabylon wrote: post #47

Most notable pieces I took from the article: 1) Facebook does not see third parties (such as BlackBerry) as “third parties.” 2) Facebook told Congress that it disabled third party access to user data, but in actuality did not. My own strong interjection: Facebook’s competitive advantage is its disregard for ethics. Somehow, Zuckerberg has been able to convince a lot of smart people to do unethical things and build un…

> Facebook’s competitive advantage is its disregard for ethics.

This appears to be a quality that occurs in some business owners.

I know more than a single entrepreneur with similar disregard for things like data retention and PII. Their reluctance to address these issues when advised, I assume, would persist until they get burned.

Taking a step back, at the root it appears simply that some people are better at focusing than others. These entrepreneurs would work on improving metrics they see relevant and their effort will be more efficient thanks to zoning everything else out.

Seeing evil intent here would be counterproductive, similar to reprimanding someone on the spectrum for not saying hello: it might just not occur to a person. The key difference here is that these decisions negatively impact countless third parties, and those third parties lack the expertise to recognize the issue.

While there’s a lot that can be said against FDA[1], there seems to be a parallel here. I want to reserve my judgement about regulation in this area, but it seems like there’s a case for it, similar to how we’d like to keep food manufacturers in check.

[1] A movie called Dallas Buyers Club comes to mind.

Re: Facebook Gave Device Makers Deep Access to Data on Users and Friends

#129

Post by WillPostForFood »

readyp1 wrote: post #121
Maarten88 wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And they got the FTC to not really interfere with their practices, even after they were found out. Good luck on net neutrality with the FTC...

Net neutrality isn't FTC's domain. FTC is the Federal TRADE Commission, which handles stuff like mergers of giant companies, the Do Not Call registry, and identity theft; the FCC, the Federal COMMUNICATIONS Commission, handles things like net neutrality, amateur radio licensing, and selling bands of spectrum.

I think everyone here knows the definition of communications. The parent poster is referring to the position of the current FCC chairman, who is pushing responsibility over to the FTC. It is clear to me, the the parent poster is skeptical of this.

The Federal Trade Commission (FTC) and Federal Communications Commission (FCC) announced an agreement on Monday to coordinate their efforts to police the internet once the latter agency has repealed its net neutrality rules.

http://thehill.com/policy/technology/364336-fcc-ftc-announce...

Re: Facebook Gave Device Makers Deep Access to Data on Users and Friends

#130

Post by justherefortart »

hackinthebochs wrote: post #117

This and the discussion here is obnoxiously bad. Facebook gave some device makers special APIs to access authorized data. This is literally no different than a web API or scraping facebook HTML, just more streamlined. What you guys seem to be objecting to is that non-facebook code was able to interact with authorized user data. But that is a necessary feature of displaying data of any kind (unless facebook owns the e…

Well not to mention the users upload all this info.

If people don't want their information shared, don't put it on a publicly accessible website?

I've yet to see anything facebook has done that is surprising. They don't charge people for using their servers so making money is clearly going to be from data analysis and marketing to users.

If people don't like it, don't use it.

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