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CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

theguardian.com

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Re: CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

#121

Post by EliRivers »

crankylinuxuser wrote: post #103
learc83 wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regardless of what Trump actually implemented. During the campaign he called for a Muslim ban. "Donald J. Trump is calling for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States until our country's representatives can figure out what the hell is going on." >We live in an age where "Muslim ban" sounds like appropriate policy to about half the population. The OP is saying that close to half the voters…

Well, it makes a great deal of sense in using "Muslim Ban". You 'otherize' them, you set them up against "You", and then you discriminate against them because they hate and want violence against you. It's also hard to go against this, as we've been at war with the Middle East since Desert Storm - only a ceasefire was called. And then later add on extremist moslems during September 11 attacks, and yeah.. It's a perfec…

Sets a very useful precedent too, opening the door for bringing back Roman Catholic bans.

Re: CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

#122

Post by dandare »

rdtsc wrote: post #79
RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #14

Which is worse: torture or killing? It seems that with all the attention that torture got, the Obama administration basically stopped trying to capture people alive to interrogate them and instead just sent drone based missiles to just kill anyone suspected of terrorism.

> Obama administration basically stopped trying to capture people alive to interrogate them and instead just sent drone based missiles to just kill anyone suspected of terrorism. Not only that but after receiving a Nobel Peace Prize he proceeded to engage in drone warfare. Just in 2016 he dropped more then 20k bombs, in countries which we were not even at war with. Many in Africa. It was surprising how little flak he…

> Anyone remember how he promised to close Guantanamo?

A European here, I was under the impression he sincerely tried to close Guantanamo but failed because of GOP controlled house and senate. Could he have done more?

Re: CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

#123

Post by ainiriand »

_delirium wrote: post #66
IIAOPSW wrote: post #4

That's real optimistic of the Guardian but somehow I doubt there's all that much grass roots support against rendition flights. We live in an age where "Muslim ban" sounds like appropriate policy to about half the population. In Democracy the people get the government they deserve. Guess we really don't deserve human rights and habeus corpus.

I dunno, if you look at specifically this kind of intelligence cooperation with "dirty" states' intelligence agencies (Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Pakistan, etc.), I've found people in "conservative" rural areas to be almost uniformly against it, even if you wouldn't be able to tell that from how their political representatives vote. I mean, to be fair, most people I've met in any location of any politics aren't really happ…

I agree. It looks to me that this is just the case of the CIA operating completely out of control. USA is not to blame, the president is not to blame, and the citizens are not to blame.

Re: CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

#124

Post by Kalium »

IIAOPSW wrote: post #20
knz wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We live in an age where "Muslim ban" sounds like appropriate policy to about half the population. In Democracy the people get the government they deserve. Guess we really don't deserve human rights and habeus corpus. So speak up. Educate your fellow citizens as to why these issues are important. Break through their media bubble/snowglobe and have multiple meaningful conversations that go deeper than the talking poi…

>So speak up. Educate your fellow citizens as to why these issues are important. Break through their media bubble/snowglobe and have multiple meaningful conversations that go deeper than the talking points spewed out by media personalities. Have you ever actually gotten that to work? Have you personally ever changed a single persons mind? Not trying to be facetious, but I'm incredulous.

Yes! I have!

With one caveat, though. If you approach it with the mindset that you're out to educate other voters, you're not going to succeed. What you can do is have actual conversations with them. Sometimes those have results.

When one person sets out to educate another, there's a presumption of power, position, and knowledge. Unless the person to be educated has set out specifically to be educated, this is almost certainly going to rub them the wrong way. Instead of being educated on the subject you'd like, you'll educate them that advocates on a given subject are arrogant lecturing asses.

Re: CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

#125

Post by ionised »

I can't see how this kind of thing doesn't just create more terrorists.

Even if I was totally innocent and this happened to me and was eventually released, the first thing on my mind would be revenge in some form.

Kudos CIA. Creating new enemies wherever none may be found, throughout this last century.

Re: CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

#126

Post by [deleted] »

JetSpiegel wrote: post #51
taxicabjesus wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect "I don't make the rules, I just enforce them" is the general way to get good people to go along with the government's schemes. One of my passengers got 'ordinarily-renditioned' [0] to the county jail. They let her go after a few hours, when the city cops found someone else who actually matched the description of the petty beer thief they were looking for. [0] http://www.taxiwars.org/2017/10/ordinary-renditi…

> I suspect "I don't make the rules, I just enforce them" is the general way to get good people to go along with the government's schemes. This did not go well in Nurenberg.

[deleted]

Re: CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

#127

Post by ionised »

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #14

Which is worse: torture or killing? It seems that with all the attention that torture got, the Obama administration basically stopped trying to capture people alive to interrogate them and instead just sent drone based missiles to just kill anyone suspected of terrorism.

Suspected by algorithm from what I understand as well. There was lacklustre human involvement in the decision-making process.

He created a world in which the children of certain countries are afraid of clear, blue skies, because it means the drones will be operating.

That's sick and totally devoid of humanity.

Re: CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

#128

Post by ionised »

jonnybgood wrote: post #95
rdtsc wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Obama administration basically stopped trying to capture people alive to interrogate them and instead just sent drone based missiles to just kill anyone suspected of terrorism. Not only that but after receiving a Nobel Peace Prize he proceeded to engage in drone warfare. Just in 2016 he dropped more then 20k bombs, in countries which we were not even at war with. Many in Africa. It was surprising how little flak he…

> Just in 2016 he dropped more then 20k bombs, in countries which we were not even at war with. Many in Africa. It was surprising how little flak he got for it Do you know who he dropped bombs on and why? You make it sound like he dropped bombs for the fun of it.

Estimations are that 28 unknown individuals were killed for every 1 targeted 'suspected' militant.

https://reprieve.org.uk/press/2014_11_25_us_drone_strikes_ki...

Not a good track record no matter how you try to spin it.

Re: CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

#129

Post by thisacctforreal »

philipov wrote: post #53
sanderjd wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I largely share your incredulity, but allow me to make a more optimistic counterpoint. I frequently change my mind, which is proof that one or more people out there are changing at least one person's mind. And here's the thing: in nearly all cases, the person or, more often, the people who change my mind never know it. I am often stubborn in the moment and unwilling to admit I've been swayed. More often, I don't real…

I'm glad you made this point, because it's a maxim I live by: You can't change people, you can only encourage them to change themselves. To effect change, people must be open and willing to change themselves. And I don't think most people are, especially the older we get. If you want to change people's minds on a big scale, it's by educating the young, and creating incentives towards your way of thinking. It requires…

I like the first two paragraphs but I'm not sure I can swallow that third one.

As a direct counter-example: I think a lot of older people have given up their previous views on privacy in exchange for using Facebook and doing other commonly-intrusive internet activities.

I think I'd replace the paragraph with "If you want to change someone's mind, try demonstrating an alternative with better trade-offs".

I'm hoping the GDPR will be a demonstration to Canadians & Americans that demanding a right to privacy is a viable alternative to the status quo.

Social networks, advertising, and privacy are able co-exist, just perhaps not with the existing trade-offs allowing free-as-in-beer and know-me-better-than-myself-"features".

edit: reordering paragraphs edit2: reorganization

Re: CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

#130

Post by thisacctforreal »

ainiriand wrote: post #123
_delirium wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dunno, if you look at specifically this kind of intelligence cooperation with "dirty" states' intelligence agencies (Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Pakistan, etc.), I've found people in "conservative" rural areas to be almost uniformly against it, even if you wouldn't be able to tell that from how their political representatives vote. I mean, to be fair, most people I've met in any location of any politics aren't really happ…

I agree. It looks to me that this is just the case of the CIA operating completely out of control. USA is not to blame, the president is not to blame, and the citizens are not to blame.

If no one is to blame for letting it happen, who do we expect to step up and attempt to address it?
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