Live data from Hacker News

Bitcoin ‘More Than Just a Fad,’ Morgan Stanley CEO Says

bloomberg.com

121–130 of 131 posts

Re: Bitcoin ‘More Than Just a Fad,’ Morgan Stanley CEO Says

#121
post #101
post #81

This seems like a decent place to ask: What is the most legit and safe method for creating a wallet and just buying a bit of Bitcoin? I wouldn't mind being able to drop a couple hundred on it and seeing where it goes, but it's hard to trust websites/subreddits that look like posts were written by nerdy 15 year olds.

Coinbase is the only answer here, and it makes me frustrated to still see the "buy a hardware wallet" recommendations. I recently had my hardware wallet (a trezor, which is the nicest one) fail during a firmware update. Now, obviously I have a backup of my seed, but for those few minutes that backup became a VERY expensive little widget. When I travel, I have to worry about where my backups are stored. Storing them i…

> then the answer is unquestionably that you should both buy and store you coins on coinbase.

That is such terribly bad advice that I cannot ignore your post. Storing any amount of coins on an exchange is a liability that is far more considerable than keeping your funds on an encrypted USB-key sized device that you can keep at your home, or at the bank, or anywhere you think it will be reasonably safe. It has fail-recovery procedures built-in so that even in the event of a hypothetical hardware failure, you can recover your funds. If you're even a tiny bit technical it won't be a problem at all.

Your argument boils down to your one single bad experience with a hardware wallet that you dub the "nicest one" despite popular knowledge and maybe because of its price alone. And that's despite being able to recover your funds safely as advertised. And the rest of your post is split between audacious comparisons between banks and exchanges that I won't bother to address; and appeals to authority ("exchanges know better!") that has been debunked over and over again in very recent history. I don't ask you to believe me, for every high-profile case you hear of MtGox, Bitfinex, BTC-e etc. there are many more smaller exchanges that (just like the big ones) sink with their customers' funds.

Re: Bitcoin ‘More Than Just a Fad,’ Morgan Stanley CEO Says

#122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point of crypto is making these figures irrelevant.

No, the point is to decentralize control.

Which is why we created a system with enormous first mover advantage such that the people who joined first see 1000x or more returns on their investment, ensuring that the distribution of BTC is wildly unequal and why people who simply own BTC have literally zero say in its operation?

Re: Bitcoin ‘More Than Just a Fad,’ Morgan Stanley CEO Says

#123
post #78
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of its value is speculative and if you buy you have to hope there's a bigger sucker somewhere in the future in order to get your payout, that's not exactly Ponzi-shaped, but I can definitely see why people might consider it a decentralized form of the pattern.

According to your interpretation, wouldn't gold also qualify as a decentralized ponzi scheme? You're just hoping some bigger sucker buys your over inflated metal right?

It's not my interpretation (I like to be more precise with terminology), just one that I could explain. I suppose that people who feel that way about bitcoin probably feel that way about any commodities that are held at speculative value above any value based on their utility, but I don't think they would describe those as being "ponzi schemes" -- not sure how they would make the distinction.

Re: Bitcoin ‘More Than Just a Fad,’ Morgan Stanley CEO Says

#124
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Coinbase is the only answer here, and it makes me frustrated to still see the "buy a hardware wallet" recommendations. I recently had my hardware wallet (a trezor, which is the nicest one) fail during a firmware update. Now, obviously I have a backup of my seed, but for those few minutes that backup became a VERY expensive little widget. When I travel, I have to worry about where my backups are stored. Storing them i…

>If I have a hardware wallet, I'm essentially betting that I am better at opsec than coinbase, a >$1billion company who devotes a non-trivial amount of resources to opsec. I'm sure people who were using Mt Gox felt the same way. Part of the equation is you're betting you place your own interests at a higher priority than the people who run Coinbase. Which is almost certainly true.

That and a hacker is much more likely to target a major coin exchange worth millions of dollars than you, random person with 0.5 bitcoin.

Re: Bitcoin ‘More Than Just a Fad,’ Morgan Stanley CEO Says

#125
post #81

This seems like a decent place to ask: What is the most legit and safe method for creating a wallet and just buying a bit of Bitcoin? I wouldn't mind being able to drop a couple hundred on it and seeing where it goes, but it's hard to trust websites/subreddits that look like posts were written by nerdy 15 year olds.

I'll second coinbase. They are one of the few reputable companies in the space. They follow all the laws, have a great looking site, have an exchange called GDAX under the same system if you want to try trading at some point, and they are pretty secure. Not to mention that any USD in your account is FDIC insured, and any Bitcoin is insured privately in case of a breach of their systems. You will need to provide your…

> any Bitcoin is insured privately in case of a breach of their systems.

This isn't entirely true, most of their coin is stored cold and uninsured. They only have insurance on their hot coins. https://support.coinbase.com/customer/portal/articles/166237...

(I don't intend this as a knock, I too recommend them.)

Re: Bitcoin ‘More Than Just a Fad,’ Morgan Stanley CEO Says

#126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stocks have underlying value even if they could no longer be traded, in other words, non-zero use value, in the form of dividends. What is bitcoin's use value? It doesn't even have commodity applications like gold.

Why isn't gold a pyramid scheme then? It's because people believe it isn't. 1000 years ago it was cotton instead of gold

Ow yeah, and Bitcoin is the first application of triple entry accounting..

I wouldn't know where it doesn't belong ;)

Re: Bitcoin ‘More Than Just a Fad,’ Morgan Stanley CEO Says

#127
post #76
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think 90%+ of its current value isn't driven by behaviorial psychology rather than fundamentals, you either haven't been paying attention or don't understand markets.

I would agree that its current value is probably inflated, regardless, bitcoin provides real value, it is not a scam.

A lot of things ‘provide real value’. What matters is the magnitude of said value. And before you can get there, you need a way to quantify it. I would posit that Bitcoin creates a lot less real (and particularly marginal real) value than perceived value.

Re: Bitcoin ‘More Than Just a Fad,’ Morgan Stanley CEO Says

#128
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Umm anyone who has studied distributed systems understands a fully distributed system cannot scale past a certain limited point. That's not controversial. That's just reality. LN, for example, is adding degrees of centralization to achieve better scaling. Human systems have a tendency towards centralization and consolidation of power/authority as well, as we see in various ways already with Bitcoin (China, Ver, Core)…

I don't agree with you, but an interested in your view. What in your opinion is the best implementation of a blockchain?

‘Dark’ coins like Monero. They provide the highest utility for their most obvious use case: money laundering and illicit, untraceable transactions.

Re: Bitcoin ‘More Than Just a Fad,’ Morgan Stanley CEO Says

#129
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, he would sound like he's pushing an agenda if he says "I have invested in it".

Are you saying that you think Gorman has actually invested in Bitcoin, but he lied because he didn't want to make it seem like he was touting his book?

I think people at his level trade on traditional assets (stocks, metals, whatever) but always with an insider's edge. He probably does not have that edge in Bitcoin.

Re: Bitcoin ‘More Than Just a Fad,’ Morgan Stanley CEO Says

#130
post #127
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would agree that its current value is probably inflated, regardless, bitcoin provides real value, it is not a scam.

A lot of things ‘provide real value’. What matters is the magnitude of said value. And before you can get there, you need a way to quantify it. I would posit that Bitcoin creates a lot less real (and particularly marginal real) value than perceived value.

It doesn't matter, it provides value. This is enough to make it not a scam, it's not like a bunch of people got together and asked how to make themselves rich. Bitcoin was created to be the trusted currency of the internet, without the banks interfering.
Post reply on HN