Most Female and Male Occupations Since 1950 • Hacker News Board

Re: Most Female and Male Occupations Since 1950

#121

Post by Cthulhu_ » Wed, Sep 13, 2017, 7:50 PM UTC

imron wrote: post #67

humanrebar wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Assuming you mean that men have jobs with higher average salaries, there are still implications beyond that. Do men have higher salaries because they are more likely to consider salary when choosing a job? Do women have lower salaries due to sexism? Some combination of the two? Something else?

> Something else? Here's one more thing that might be a confounding factor - taller people have higher salaries [0], and on average men are taller than women. Maybe just a spurious correlation [1], but still interesting to think about. 0: https://www.livescience.com/5552-taller-people-earn-money.ht... 1: http://www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations

I did notice (anecdotal) that people in management are usually taller. Taller than me I might add, and I'm a solid 6'2" (which is like... slightly above average in NL). A lot of people in management are closer to 6'6" (2 meters).

Re: Most Female and Male Occupations Since 1950

#122

Post by Cthulhu_ » Wed, Sep 13, 2017, 7:52 PM UTC

speby wrote: post #120

bbarn wrote: post #70

So according to that, software developers are around 20% female. That seems high to me, from my own experiences. Even still, with all the "let's get more women in tech" stuff I read, are there initiatives to get women in the other jobs even further to the left on that graph? (largely physical labor jobs)

And likewise, are there more initiatives to get men into jobs that are more heavily skewed towards women?

Not as strongly, but there is demand for male nurses - they need stronger people to help move people around, and men are stronger. (biological facts, etc)

Re: Most Female and Male Occupations Since 1950

#123

Post by tonmoy » Wed, Sep 13, 2017, 7:52 PM UTC

patio11 wrote: post #39

disconnected wrote: post #27

Many of those shifts from a majority male workforce to a majority female workforce seem to happen quickly (or even abruptly) at around the 1960s/1970s. I'm not well versed in American history. Did anything significant happen then to cause this, or is it just an interesting anomaly?

Among other things, it was influenced by ~2 million men leaving the civilian labor force temporarily because the government urgently required their services to fight a war. The part would have been disproportionately true for jobs lower down the socioeconomic ladder because jobs higher on the socioeconomic ladder generally go to people who had more ability to licitly or illicitly avoid selection for military service.

The GP was asking if something happened in the 60s/70s, and I believe you are describing the effect of WW2 which happened much earlier

Re: Most Female and Male Occupations Since 1950

#124

Post by jonthepirate » Wed, Sep 13, 2017, 7:52 PM UTC

The sad reality of the Bay Area is that many engineers would get into trouble for sharing this link at work.

Re: Most Female and Male Occupations Since 1950

#125

Post by shawndumas » Wed, Sep 13, 2017, 7:55 PM UTC

seizethecheese wrote: post #115

joenot443 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just a friendly reminder as I noticed you're new - patronising, nonproductive comments like this don't go over as well here as they do on reddit.

Your comment is equally patronizing.

but it was productive

Re: Most Female and Male Occupations Since 1950

#126

Post by Cthulhu_ » Wed, Sep 13, 2017, 7:57 PM UTC

TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #55

mikestew wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a variety of possible contributing factors, primarily that it was the era of "women's lib", or in full "women's liberation". IOW, "a woman's place is in the home, preferably barefoot and pregnant" began to go out the window. Along with that was the civil rights era, meaning at the least the idea of equality for all. In summary, the U. S. began, even if just a little bit, to pull its head out of its ass with…

> In summary, the U. S. began, even if just a little bit, to pull its head out of its ass with respect to equality and rights. Please watch your tone. Just that your opinion is different from others and happens to currently match the majority view doesn't mean you should be rude to those with different opinions. There are plenty of people with more nuanced opinions on gender roles that aren't bigoted. edit: To those…

Tone policing. You can avoid this ad hominem fallacy and instead reply to / counter the argument made instead of the tone it was presented in.

Re: Most Female and Male Occupations Since 1950

#127

Post by watwut » Wed, Sep 13, 2017, 8:00 PM UTC

zo1 wrote: post #117

watwut wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is highly discussed issue in pedagogic cycles - how to get and keep more males. For years. The answer usually ends up "yes, but they would come only if there would be higher social status and salaries for teachers". And no one knows how to achieve that. It is possible that money is not the only thing to keep males away, I dont recall any studies. Just that is the usual assumption. The fact that male teachers ten…

It's a fascinating topic, really. It's almost like "women in tech", just for men in "teaching". Yet, the discussion is framed entirely differently and the reasons for its existence are somehow perfectly valid, items that "women in tech" advocates would not consider conceding/admitting for their own cause. Because that would run contrary to "structural oppression" by the males reason.

Well, arguing that higher salaries in tech would attract more women is ridiculous, mainly because salaries are high already. Arguing that women in tech are suspect sexual predators would be absurd. The social bs (beers and games up etc) are not mentioned in case of techers, because teachers are not expected to socialize with each other as much as techies are.

Then there are other cultural reasons that seems to be sa me in both cases - role models and societal idea of what is appropriate for males and females. The sexism in the assumption that gender x is less qualify is stated in both cases.

It seems to be roughly the same except completely unapplicable arguments?

Re: Most Female and Male Occupations Since 1950

#128

Post by Cthulhu_ » Wed, Sep 13, 2017, 8:00 PM UTC

jonthepirate wrote: post #124

The sad reality of the Bay Area is that many engineers would get into trouble for sharing this link at work.

Citation needed. It's a neutrally worded data visualization article, it doesn't even reference IT or the SV drama wrt gender distribution, nor does it pass judgment on the data it presents.

(I shared it in my work slack, mind you I don't work in Bay Area and we haven't had trouble with aggressive political correctness etc yet)

Re: Most Female and Male Occupations Since 1950

#129

Post by screaminghawk » Wed, Sep 13, 2017, 8:02 PM UTC

joenot443 wrote: post #87

yung_endian wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>That seems high to me, from my own experiences. It's almost as if your own individual experiences are not indicative of population-level trends at large

Just a friendly reminder as I noticed you're new - patronising, nonproductive comments like this don't go over as well here as they do on reddit.

I don't think the comment is nonproductive. The majority of "women in tech" issues like this post is referring to, are belittled/misunderstood due to the differences in individual experiences. It's a fair comment to point out at this sometimes works in the reverse as well (i.e. sometimes there are more woman and/or fewer problems).

Re: Most Female and Male Occupations Since 1950

#130

Post by Cthulhu_ » Wed, Sep 13, 2017, 8:02 PM UTC

dahdum wrote: post #108

watwut wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is highly discussed issue in pedagogic cycles - how to get and keep more males. For years. The answer usually ends up "yes, but they would come only if there would be higher social status and salaries for teachers". And no one knows how to achieve that. It is possible that money is not the only thing to keep males away, I dont recall any studies. Just that is the usual assumption. The fact that male teachers ten…

I've heard from male teachers that teaching younger children isn't worth the risk (perceived or real) of baseless accusations ruining them. They much preferred to teach high school or above.

In my elementary school, teachers up until age 7 or so were women, above were men. One factor there might've been that kids below that age still have a chance of having err, 'accidents'.

(source: I had an accident)