On being the employee who “needs improvement” • Hacker News Board

Re: On being the employee who “needs improvement”

#121

Post by hosh » Sat, Jul 15, 2017, 4:30 PM UTC

curtis wrote: post #106

I feel like many of the commenters here are missing the point of the post. > My takeaway from pondering this today is pretty straightforward: > Talk to your people. Don’t wait. Do it now, and never stop. If they are meeting expectations, thank them regularly. If they aren’t meeting your needs or the needs of others in the company, tell them now. Don’t wait until you find yourself identifying “patterns”. and then a li…

Agreed. I am learning something called "crucial conversations" right now. These are conversations where opinions vary, stakes are high, and emotions run strong. People have an aversion to having these conversations. It usually ends in silence or violence.

The book I am drawing this from claims that handling it is a skill that is teachable and learnable. I have been trying to apply what little I have learned so far and it had been working way better than what I have been using.

Re: On being the employee who “needs improvement”

#122

Post by comstock » Sat, Jul 15, 2017, 4:33 PM UTC

VonGallifrey wrote: post #78

comstock wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There could be reasons... one thing you might not have experienced is not having explicit management, and not even knowing who you /should/ inform. That happens from time to time. This is possibly indicated by "bosses". Not having explicit line management sucks.

There is a really easy solution to the "no explicit management" problem: Just go to 1 boss and ask "When I want to take a vacation day, who do I talk to/what is the process for that?" Works best if that is early on after joining the company. Or just ask the same question to HR, they would guaranteed know what the process is.

It doesn't always work in my experience. The guy who signs off on vacations might be different than the guy managing day-to-day work.

There might not be a clear vacation policy (as much as you like etc).

Ask HR? I've worked at companies with 100 people who had no dedicated HR staff...

Re: On being the employee who “needs improvement”

#123

Post by BeetleB » Sat, Jul 15, 2017, 4:37 PM UTC

csydas wrote: post #18

humanrebar wrote: post #5

I don't know what the motivations for the bosses in this story were, but in corporate America personal improvement plans are fundamentally about gearing up to fire someone more than any actual improvement. When defending yourself against a wrongful termination lawsuit, it looks good to courts to say, "Look, we met every week, we had these conversations, and things didn't get better enough." In the story linked, it se…

I think that is a somewhat cynical view of the matter; I appreciate that "American Work Ethics" are highly flawed and mostly theatrics (I say this as an American expat who has experienced work from all over the globe), but as much as there is management theatrics in the US, there's also a lot of "woe is me" from employees when they're disciplined. I'd really hate to see how the author of the piece would have reacted…

>I'd really hate to see how the author of the piece would have reacted to the Russian Managers at the company I'm with at the moment, as the managers certainly don't sugar coat when they're unhappy; it's not abusive, it's just very to the point.

I don't know - he may actually prefer it?

I had a manager who would be polite, indirect, etc when he wanted to criticize me. As a result, he did a really poor job at it and because he felt defensive he felt he had to strategize the whole thing, and it was a waste of company time. I cannot correct his misconceptions because he was so indirect that it wasn't clear what his concerns were, etc.

My other boss: He occasionally has a tantrum and throws F-bombs - borderline shouting. Very scary in the beginning, but overall better. The direct feedback loop works well. And when he's wrong, even if he won't admit it, it is less stressful for me. It's easier when you know someone is wrong than when you don't even know what the person is thinking.

Anyway, to the larger point - a company should invest in coming up with an appropriate methodology for having these conversations. Managers should follow it ("stick to the script"), and employees should be aware of it as well. That way, at least there's no side conversation on how appropriate the feedback was.

Re: On being the employee who “needs improvement”

#124

Post by christophilus » Sat, Jul 15, 2017, 4:38 PM UTC

codyb wrote: post #70

pweissbrod wrote: post #47

The key to being a successful remote worker is a foundation of trust. Its unfortunately Human Nature to assume the worst when a remote contact is unreachable when you need them . Therefore it's crucial to establish a reputation where your co-workers trust you to do the right thing connected or not. The moral of the story is not about abusive bosses or misaligned corporate goals. It's just about maintaining that cruci…

I find managing upwards is the best way to deal with these situations. I've had micromanagers before and no one enjoys that random "hey wheres X at?" question so what I do is give status updates every so often. I avoid the stressful question entirely this way. It makes your managers life easier and yours as well and allows you to give updates on your time instead of theirs. This works remotely and in person. I work m…

Yep. This is sage advice, I think even for in-office workers. Visibility and clear communication to your managers is critical to success.

Re: On being the employee who “needs improvement”

#125

Post by BeetleB » Sat, Jul 15, 2017, 4:42 PM UTC

ptero wrote: post #31

Leaving aside the clear miscommunication that led to the "needs improvement" state first, it seems to me the management did just fine after that: 1. They quickly and clearly told the employee of the problem. 2. They proposed a course of action 3. Their proposal worked (at the end they were happy with his work). It was not pleasant for sure (for both sides, I bet), but would it be worse to say nothing and terminate hi…

>It was not pleasant for sure (for both sides, I bet), but would it be worse to say nothing and terminate him for non performance in a couple of extra months.

Those aren't the only choices, though. I think the point of contention (which isn't clear in the article), is whether they had any conversations about it before initiating a formal process. If not, I completely agree with the author even if the author was irresponsible with his work ethic.

Think of the asymmetry. If I'm dissatisfied with my manager, can I start a formal process against him? Generally not. My only option is to have a conversation (be it with him or with his superiors).

Conversations should happen clearly before a PIP.

Re: On being the employee who “needs improvement”

#126

Post by scarface74 » Sat, Jul 15, 2017, 4:44 PM UTC

crucini wrote: post #92

csydas wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that is a somewhat cynical view of the matter; I appreciate that "American Work Ethics" are highly flawed and mostly theatrics (I say this as an American expat who has experienced work from all over the globe), but as much as there is management theatrics in the US, there's also a lot of "woe is me" from employees when they're disciplined. I'd really hate to see how the author of the piece would have reacted…

I've worked blue collar jobs where bosses are way more direct, like your Russian managers - and it's better. I remember one who would tell me most mornings, "Try not to fuck up today!" When a boss is angry and direct in giving feedback, we don't become resentful; we get scared for a while, then settle down. It's the natural way of hierarchy. We all need course correction from time to time, and the modern white-collar…

I had three different style managers within a three year period.

1. An old army guy who was about 48 who left the military in his early 30s and became a developer. He was smart, direct, but polite. He called a spade a spade, put family first and I enjoyed working for him. He would always tell you when your stuff stinks. He had a falling out with the main office located in another state about two hours away because he intentionally hired senior developers who were all in our 40s who weren't afraid to shake things up and do things the right way. I specifically took the job at the company because of him.

2. After he left, the company promoted a developer to management who would not rock the boat. He was a nice guy, but would never stand up for doing things the right way and you didn't know where you stood until you got a review. I left the company as soon as was feasible -- I put in my letter as soon as I closed on my house.

3. Then I went to work for a company as the software architect for the entire company. My manager there was person who was technically strong and knew how to play politics - not in a bad way - he knew how to navigate corporate structure and would sometimes clean up behind me with my more direct approach at getting things done.

Re: On being the employee who “needs improvement”

#127

Post by ncallaway » Sat, Jul 15, 2017, 4:45 PM UTC

CydeWeys wrote: post #109

biztos wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a remote worker and I'm sure it's occasionally a pain that I'm at the gym, or sleeping, or otherwise not responding on Slack or whatever. However, like many remote workers I work in a distributed team across several time zones. So it's not just "he goes to the gym in the afternoon," it's more like one person leaves the office in one time zone in order to beat the traffic jams, while another person in another time…

Distributed teams across multiple timezones is a bit of a different situation though; you're naturally going to be more asynchronous there, and the team structure will be different. All of my experience with remote coworkers has been on collocated teams with the occasional remote worker in the same timezone. I don't have any interest in being on a fully distributed team; I like being physically present with my cowork…

We run an entirely remote company, and the cabin fever is definitely a real concern.

If you ever have to be a remote worker in the future, I'd highly recommend getting a co-working space as it really helps fulfill a ton of those social needs. Your employer might even pay for some (or all) of the costs associated.

Re: On being the employee who “needs improvement”

#128

Post by walshemj » Sat, Jul 15, 2017, 4:47 PM UTC

CydeWeys wrote: post #99

elmerland wrote: post #84

I'm confused about this article. On the one side I agree with his point on constant and timely feedback. On the other side I disagree with his dismissal of yearly reviews and weekly meetings. You need these more formal environments to quantify the performance over a longer period of time. In doing so you can correct for biases, and get feedback not just from the manager but from everyone you work with. Additionally y…

It's also not clear to me how pay-for-performance and promote-for-performance is supposed to work without some kind of systematized performance review system. And I will say that, at least in my personal experience, pay-and-promote-for-performance is hugely important in getting the most out of your software engineers.

Performance based pay and the whole hr infrastructure around it is designed to lower the pay quanta it has < 1% to do with rewarding performance.

Re: On being the employee who “needs improvement”

#129

Post by BeetleB » Sat, Jul 15, 2017, 4:47 PM UTC

acjohnson55 wrote: post #69

empath75 wrote: post #51

If you get to the point that you're on a personal improvement plan, you should immediately look for other work. There are no circumstances in which it will turn around.

I strongly disagree with this advice. If it gets to the point of a PIP, you're in very hot water at most places. But that does not necessarily mean you are going out the door. If you care about keeping your job, step one is to ascertain whether your management is truly willing to invest in working it out, or simply going through the motions. It's time to level with them and have some very probing conversations on wha…

>Most managers do not want to fire their reports, if they can help it. But a PIP is often the last breakpoint before they have to do the deed.

As someone said, it varies from company to company. Many managers treat it as a step to firing. And if you listen to employees who've been through it, many will have stories about how unfair it was - unfair in that others who had worse "infractions" were given a pass. To them, it was clear the boss just wanted them out of the team and was using some pretext (not the real reason) to get rid of them. Very often, that pretext is not maintaining appropriate work hours.

From Netlfix's former HR manager:

>One Netflix manager requested a PIP for a quality assurance engineer named Maria, who had been hired to help develop our streaming service. The technology was new, and it was evolving very quickly. Maria’s job was to find bugs. She was fast, intuitive, and hardworking. But in time we figured out how to automate the QA tests. Maria didn’t like automation and wasn’t particularly good at it. Her new boss (brought in to create a world-class automation tools team) told me he wanted to start a PIP with her.

>I replied, “Why bother? We know how this will play out. You’ll write up objectives and deliverables for her to achieve, which she can’t, because she lacks the skills. Every Wednesday you’ll take time away from your real work to discuss (and document) her shortcomings. You won’t sleep on Tuesday nights, because you’ll know it will be an awful meeting, and the same will be true for her. After a few weeks there will be tears. This will go on for three months. The entire team will know. And at the end you’ll fire her. None of this will make any sense to her, because for five years she’s been consistently rewarded for being great at her job—a job that basically doesn’t exist anymore. Tell me again how Netflix benefits?

https://hbr.org/2014/01/how-netflix-reinvented-hr

Re: On being the employee who “needs improvement”

#130

Post by TheRealDunkirk » Sat, Jul 15, 2017, 4:49 PM UTC

hosh wrote: post #115

I wrote this on a thread off of the original blog post from Coraline. I mentioned the content of a book called "Corporate Confidential" in which a former HR professional talks about how corporations uses performance reviews as a means to legally fire someone because they cannot fire someone for the real reason. I said it was cynical though others viewed it otherwise. This past week, our small team had brought in an e…

My biggest takeaway from Crucial Conversations is that you have to be watching out for when a conversation turns crucial. This can sneak up on you, especially in business. If you're having an argument with your significant other, it's usually obvious, because of the emotions involved. But we tend to let things slide with our colleagues, and people are _usually_ more reserved. If you miss it, then it has to come back, and it always comes back harder. If you can recognize when a (ongoing) conversation (first) turns critical, and handle it appropriately at the time, it can prevent needing to be on a PIP.

Of course, some managers and reports are never going to get along well, and you may just be in the crosshairs of ambitious jerk with a personal vendetta for a perceived slight.

Ah, but I digress.