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Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

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Re: Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

#121

Post by learc83 »

SCdF wrote: post #117
lqdc13 wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In that case, should 50% of men at your current workplace be immediately fired for previous harassment? You are probably assuming it is one or two people doing all the harassment, but what if it's uniformly distributed? Different people find different things offensive. Some have a very low tolerance. Some joke to build camaraderie. On the other hand, there is always a way to interpret almost any joke as offensive. Ge…

> In that case, should 50% of men at your current workplace be immediately fired for previous harassment? You are probably assuming it is one or two people doing all the harassment, but what if it's uniformly distributed? What if! I'm guessing there is a cultural issue here, since you've jumped onto firing, which I didn't even realise was something we were talking about . It sounds like in your (US-based) experience…

>It sounds like in your (US-based) experience people can be trigger fired based on an honest miscommunication (e.g. a joke that unintentionally offended someone).

Yes this can easily happen here. There are almost no employee protections in the US. For the vast majority of employees an employer can fire you at any time with no notice for nearly any reason.

If there's a he said she said situation, it's generally worth it to fire any low level employee rather than risk the slightest chance of a lawsuit or bad PR even if they know they'll likely win.

Re: Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

#122

Post by learc83 »

SCdF wrote: post #96
swiley wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah the drink thing is definitely inappropriate.

This article and thread have been fascinating to me. I am from NZ, so maybe this is a US-cultural thing? The idea that getting a drink with a women-not-your-spouse being inappropriate is so crazy and weird to me! Do you not have female friends? How do you spend time with them?

If you're married or in a relationship in NZ, your spouse is fine with you getting drunk alone with someone of the opposite sex?

Re: Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

#123

Post by roel_v »

tluyben2 wrote: post #17
mc32 wrote: post #3

What are people so uptight about? Not that I understand why, but it makes some sense if religious people are somehow shy to that, but atheists? Are people afraid of perception or afraid of misinterpretation or afraid physically, are there that many unhinged people out there? You can totally make friends with people of the same sex you are generally sexually attracted to and it does not mean or have to end up in a wei…

I am surprised about this as well: here (EU) people I know have no issues with this at all. Friends are both male and female, for my wife and me, and we meet, alone, with them often. Colleagues as well; I often have lunch/dinner/car rides alone with my colleagues of the opposite sex and never thought about this. They are colleagues and we are there to do a job. I have never, only for highschool teachers, heard anythi…

Probably in the group you hang around with, but you can't generalize that. There are definitely people in the Netherlands who will actively avoid situations where they are 1:1 with mixed genders, and not only in work settings. Since I have children, I meet much more people who are 'different' from my 'normal' crowd (which are successful university educated upper middle and upper class professionals) and I havr painfully felt this more than a handful of times the last two years - to the point where I've started to somewhat dread situations where this sort of awkwardness might happen.

Additionally, and this is even worse, it is starting to reinforce some stereotypes in me, and is making me less tolerant of those who are uptight like that about it. And this is not something against muslims either; I've had muslim women excuse themselves from me and I just thought 'oh well, when in Rome, do like the Romans'. It's when people are more 'like me' and behave like this that I get annoyed and think less of them (and their background) for it. As bad as that is.

(Edit: but what I hate even more is that this is making me adjust my own behavior as well. I start to feel 'uncomfortable' (oh what a horrible word) now in those situations because I realize others might be, and I certainly don't want others to feel like they somehow 'have' to be around me. I'm turning into a product of the society that produces millions of precious little snowflakes with the mental resilience and self-awareness of 2 years olds. I hope it's just part of the transition into being part of the 'old people'. At least that would make it 'normal'.)

Re: Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

#124

Post by Realist1337 »

throwawayable wrote: post #82
mc32 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't doubt that can happen --there are vindictive, retributive people out there. That kind of person would not need a 1:1 or drive home, etc., to bring forward an accusation.

This is true, but it would be more difficult for the mud to stick if it hard for that person to prove you spent large amounts of time alone with them. note: I don't believe that many people would be vindictive like that, but the impact of such an accusation is so large means that even a very small chance of it happening is something worth protecting oneself against.

You are right, most people are not like that. How many people are? 1%? 2%? 0.5%? I work with hundreds of people, we have dozens of meetings a month, we might meet with over a thousand people a year in a large company.

Not throw in tough situations. People trying to cut legal/ethical/accounting corners to make their numbers. People hoping not to get caught. People doing whatever they need to to prevent getting fired. People trying not to be in the bottom 10% (and thus let go.) In the context of all this -- yes, people start using every tactic and social weapon in their toolkit. It takes 1 accusation and you are done.

Re: Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

#125

Post by [deleted] »

Inconel wrote: post #104
learc83 wrote: post #78

When I was in college I was a team lead at Best Buy for a while. I was in charge of a mostly female team of cashiers, and I was alone with them in the cash office frequently while they counted their tills. I made one of the cashiers mad by reprimanding her, and she decided to get back at me by claiming that I grabbed her and shook her while we were in the cash office. I never touched her, and luckily we still had vid…

Your point about having video evidence brings up an interesting question for me, how does the HN community generally feel about pervasive workplace surveillance? It seems based on some of the articles I've read about harassment, that many times people will only feel comfortable coming forward when they have hard evidence such as texts, emails, video, etc against the perpetrators. Seeing as we, in the US at least, see…

[deleted]

Re: Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

#126

Post by SCdF »

learc83 wrote: post #122
SCdF wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This article and thread have been fascinating to me. I am from NZ, so maybe this is a US-cultural thing? The idea that getting a drink with a women-not-your-spouse being inappropriate is so crazy and weird to me! Do you not have female friends? How do you spend time with them?

If you're married or in a relationship in NZ, your spouse is fine with you getting drunk alone with someone of the opposite sex?

You can't drink without getting drunk?

(To answer your main question though: I'm OK with it, maybe that's just me though. I know we are a small nation but I don't know everyone.)

Edit: Since we're on the subject, I just spent a week living in an AirBNB apartment with a female work colleague (work meetup in a different city). Just us two. Before this thread I didn't even think that was weird. Americans: is that weird?

Re: Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

#127

Post by sheepmullet »

eulo__ wrote: post #72
lqdc13 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it irrational? According to the UN, 40-50% of women in Europe experienced unwanted sexual advancement at work[1]. That is, statistically speaking without breaking it down by industry, close to half of women at your workplace are getting harassed and could report the perpetrator. For comparison, lighting kills 0.000017% of the population per year. [1] http://endviolence.un.org/pdf/pressmaterials/unite_the_situa…

I think if you're worried about woman calling you out for being a dick, you're probably worried because you're a dick to women. People aren't malicious in my experience unless you give them cause to be.

> People aren't malicious in my experience unless you give them cause to be.

Oh to be young and in a growth industry....

I've seen so much backstabbing and malicious behaviour from men and women in the workplace. All it takes is bad economic times.

Re: Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

#128

Post by tluyben2 »

speedplane wrote: post #62
tluyben2 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are talking about a superior; then you have to be a bit more careful. What if equal colleagues? I cannot why that is a problem. It is just a drink.

In theory, I agree, but in practice, no two are exactly equal. Even if they have the same title, some have more influence, connections, respect. And if it's just a drink, that's totally fine too. The concern is that if one, the other, or both become intoxicated, it may become more. The solution isn't hard, bring a buddy with you, or do something that doesn't involve drinking.

But what is so bad about drinking particular? It might be a cultural difference again, but really nothing goes on here with an afterwork drink...

Re: Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

#129

Post by learc83 »

SCdF wrote: post #126
learc83 wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're married or in a relationship in NZ, your spouse is fine with you getting drunk alone with someone of the opposite sex?

You can't drink without getting drunk? (To answer your main question though: I'm OK with it, maybe that's just me though. I know we are a small nation but I don't know everyone .) Edit: Since we're on the subject, I just spent a week living in an AirBNB apartment with a female work colleague (work meetup in a different city). Just us two. Before this thread I didn't even think that was weird. Americans: is that weird…

Bad phrasing. Do you think the average New Zealander is ok with their spouse going out for drinks alone with someone of the opposite sex?

I'm pretty sure that most Americans wouldn't like that, and I think jealousy and insecurity are pretty common among humans of all countries.

About the AirBNB thing--it's pretty context dependant. If you are both single and working for a small startup and you did it voluntarily, I think most Most Americans under 40 wouldn't find it too weird.

If you're working for a large company, or your startup made you share, I think most of us would think it's strange.

If you're in relationships, I don't know very many people who would be fine with their spouse/SO doing it.

Re: Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

#130

Post by sheepmullet »

vkou wrote: post #65
home_boi wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The default outcome in he-said-she-said, no other proof is no action from HR. There needs to be more justification to this statement. What happens in HR is basically a black box to most people.

Our society, our justice system, and our corporate culture has an enormous bias in favor of harassers, abusers, and rapists. There is enormous pressure to marginalize, ignore, and punish victims, to ignore accusations, and to protect aggressors. See - practically every single instance of rape/harassment/abuse that has hit the public eye. The consistent pattern in all of them is how many victims had to come forward, h…

> Our society, our justice system, and our corporate culture has an enormous bias in favor of harassers, abusers, and rapists.

Do you have any evidence?

Show me the pressure society has placed on rape victims that come forward.

Show me the bias of the courts - Accusations without evidence are treated much more seriously than they would be for other crimes.

Show me the corporations who protect the normal man. When I was being bullied by my female boss I would have loved a corporate culture on my side.

Etc etc.

> If you are an actual harasser, the deck is incredibly stacked in your favour

Yes. Because the average woman will not report you for minor sexual harassment.

Not because of society, our corporate culture, or our justice system.

And it doesn't help the innocent man who has been falsely accused.

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