Why is Russia so good at encouraging women into tech? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why is Russia so good at encouraging women into tech?

#121

Post by futun » Fri, Apr 21, 2017, 1:08 PM UTC

Silly Americans. You are always prohibited from talking about the differences between men and women.

Americans think that men and women are exactly the same except for genitalia. We Russians don't.

It's an example of primitive, anti-scientific thinking driven by America's cult-like obsession with gender equality. Historically speaking, placing "equality of outcome" over "equality of opportunity" destroys nations. America will learn this the hard way, I think.

Here is the reality which is too painful for Americans to accept:

Women are as good at STEM as men. Women have a high capacity in STEM. BUT statistically, far fewer women than men enjoy STEM. Women are less interested in STEM. And no, that's not because of some invisible patriarchy. It's because wealth affords choice. Here's a news flash: Women like different things than men do. Entertainment, fashion and other industries understand this deeply. But tech apparently does not. Women and men have different goals, and therefore different tastes. (That's statistically supportable. But since it doesn't match the narrative, it's always easier to brand it as "sexist". Which is deeply ironic considering we're talking about science here.)

Let the down-modding begin... for great justice.

Re: Why is Russia so good at encouraging women into tech?

#122

Post by simonh » Fri, Apr 21, 2017, 1:08 PM UTC

67726e wrote: post #53

tptacek wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without engaging in any of the rest of your comment, I'm going to call out again the attempt to shift goalposts from tech to STEM in general. Tech people want to believe that the gender disparity in their field is shared among all the STEM fields, but, of course, it is not: women are far better represented in other STEM fields. Computer science, physics, and engineering have similarly acute gender disparity. The rest…

> some STEM fields, like molecular biology, have better than 50% representation of women. I hope those fields have scholarships and campaigns to get underrepresented men into those fields. Your downvotes only serve to highlight your hypocrisy. If balance is the goal, then that needs to occur for all groups in all fields or none at all. Otherwise it's obvious you're just pushing an agenda.

Balance isn't the goal. Equal opportunity is the goal.

If the imbalance is due to a lack of interest in a field by one gender or another that's perhaps regrettable but not a moral issue. If the imbalance is due to obstacles or prejudices faced by one gender over another then would you agree that is a moral issue that is more important for society to rectify?

Re: Why is Russia so good at encouraging women into tech?

#123

Post by brango » Fri, Apr 21, 2017, 1:08 PM UTC

rimliu wrote: post #105

RodericDay wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that this is the top comment is very related to the actual issue. I came from mech eng, and the cluelessness and defensiveness techies display when their field's hostility towards women is discussed is incredibly messed up.

Maybe because there is no hostility towards women? Have you seen a bunch of programmers who were not happy about prospect of getting some girls among coworkers?

Exactly. Who wouldn't want to work with some Russian hotties?

Re: Why is Russia so good at encouraging women into tech?

#124

Post by cholantesh » Fri, Apr 21, 2017, 1:09 PM UTC

douche wrote: post #110

htns wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Tech people want to believe that the gender disparity in their field is shared among all the STEM fields" It's convenient for both women's studies departments and tech recruiters to pretend other fields don't exist. It is taboo to talk about it, to the point that I haven't come across any serious piece of writing that dared to seriously contemplate the question of "what are the girls choosing to do instead?", but I…

> what are the girls choosing to do instead? https://nsf.gov/statistics/2016/nsb20161/uploads/1/6/at03-12...

Wow. I knew there was a disparity; I didn't think it was this stark.

Re: Why is Russia so good at encouraging women into tech?

#125

Post by paganel » Fri, Apr 21, 2017, 1:09 PM UTC

mynegation wrote: post #57

As a Russian who got university education in Russia and worked in both Russia and Canada, I can confirm that the reasons are both cultural and economic. First, for the big part Soviet Russia did not have a sizeable percentage of stay-at-home mothers: women were _expected_ to work, childcare was absolutely free, tight living conditions made multi-generational families, when retired grand-parents took care of children,…

> women were _expected_ to work,

I also grew up in Eastern Europe in the '80s, and this is what most of present-day Westerners don't get. And women were not supposed to hold only "women-related" jobs, for example my aunt was an industrial-crane operator.

Re: Why is Russia so good at encouraging women into tech?

#126

Post by Pharylon » Fri, Apr 21, 2017, 1:09 PM UTC

SilverSlash wrote: post #15

Maybe because like men all over the world, Russian women aren't specially "encouraged" to go into tech? Maybe nobody has to tell them or tell anyone to 'like science'. People just do. The same argument goes for women in science. Albert Einstein was told he wouldn't amount to much. Doesn't mean he 'got discouraged' and quit physics. That's not why we do science - for public appreciation - we do it because we love it n…

Yes, because each one of us is an island, and we're not influenced by society at all as it is.

I have a two year old and I can tell you fighting against pinky-princess girl culture is a battle. As a parent, it's you vs basically the rest of society that sends a million little cues about what girls are supposed to do. I had this conversation with my daughter the other morning:

Daughter: I want to be a boy when I grow up. Me: Why is that? Daughter: So I can be an astronaut!

Of course, I explained that girls can be astronauts too. And I've never done anything to set her expectations differently. But they just absorb this stuff from the ether of our culture. At her age, she's picked up on the idea that only boys are astronauts, and girls are ballerinas and princesses and shit.

Re: Why is Russia so good at encouraging women into tech?

#127

Post by danbruc » Fri, Apr 21, 2017, 1:10 PM UTC

sanswork wrote: post #23

simonsarris wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IQ is highly heritable[1], and if smart people are having zero or one children, that should be of concern to everyone. It's possible that nutrition + butts in school seats created the Flynn effect, where the population's IQ rose. The next century might see the reverse. [1] Per gwern: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13729085

Are you saying people in Europe, north America, and Russia are smarter than people in the rest of the world?

They are if you are willing to accept IQ scores as a proxy, the Wikipedia article for »IQ and the Wealth of Nations« [1] has a world map of average IQ scores. This whole topic is of course highly controversial because in some sense it is right around the corner of racism. There is substantial debate about the accuracy of the data, the magnitude of the effect, nature vs nurture, appropriateness of measuring IQ, biases in the methodology, the direction of the causal relation and so on.

But if you stay away from the details behind the effect and just look at the measured data, you see an unequal distribution of average IQ scores across the globe. The effect may not be as large as the referenced book claims, but the difference has been confirmed by critical responses albeit with reduced magnitude. It is pretty hard if not impossible the get an unbiased picture of this topic, so I will leave it at this and ask you to dive into the rabbit hole yourself, I don't want to accidentally spread false claims because I am certainly no expert on this.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_and_the_Wealth_of_Nations

Re: Why is Russia so good at encouraging women into tech?

#128

Post by tptacek » Fri, Apr 21, 2017, 1:10 PM UTC

belorn wrote: post #117

tptacek wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since molecular biology has something like a 54/46 distribution and tech has something like a 19/81 distribution I'd probably tell anyone who told me I should focus on the injustices of molecular biology to shove it up their ass.

54/46 is considered gender equal ratio in Sweden as its within the 40%/40% line. However the argument that we should put our focus based on how high the gender unequal distribution is is an fascinating argument since here in Sweden we have a perfect record of every employed person profession (as part of the tax record). We can list every professions and their gender distribution, and naturally very few of the stem pr…

In case this needs to be spelled out for you, and I apologize if it doesn't, but the subtext of there being a unique gender disparity in tech not shared by thematically similar STEM fields, let alone STEM in general, is that the causal agent is misogyny.

Re: Why is Russia so good at encouraging women into tech?

#129

Post by m23khan » Fri, Apr 21, 2017, 1:10 PM UTC

same thing in China as well - Chinese ladies and men are both serious in their studies. I think it has to do with the national psyche developed during the harsh years of Communism where either inherited wealth or proving academic mettle meant getting a comfortable lifestyle.

In Soviet Union, it is no secret how much the scientists, mathematicians as well as intelligent people (e.g. chess players) were revered on national level.

Re: Why is Russia so good at encouraging women into tech?

#130

Post by brango » Fri, Apr 21, 2017, 1:11 PM UTC

gkya wrote: post #76

SilverSlash wrote: post #15

Maybe because like men all over the world, Russian women aren't specially "encouraged" to go into tech? Maybe nobody has to tell them or tell anyone to 'like science'. People just do. The same argument goes for women in science. Albert Einstein was told he wouldn't amount to much. Doesn't mean he 'got discouraged' and quit physics. That's not why we do science - for public appreciation - we do it because we love it n…

This. I think encouraging women is discouraging in itself. It includes an assumption of power and superiority, and opens them up to doubts and criticism about their technical merits. The best would be not discouraging anybody at all, then those naturally inclined towards the field will be attracted by themselves. A thing that all of us can do is to get rid of their prejudices for real. We like calling things mysogny…

I went to a new city and wanted to see what entrepreneurs were up to. Too bad, because the only networking events were female only. What a waste. "Encouraging" women actually leads to them having fewer opportunities.