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Programmers should not call themselves engineers (2015)

theatlantic.com

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Re: Programmers should not call themselves engineers (2015)

#121

Post by eru »

VLM wrote: post #64
gspetr wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Following this logic, anyone who manages engineers is a developer.

Interestingly that terminology fits in the building trades and we can only dream of making large scale software projects as predictable and reliable and human safe as large skyscrapers. That is a truly excellent analogy.

Cost overruns are sadly all too common in construction---especially for anything that goes on below ground. That's where all the surprises are.

Skyscrapers and bridges are less likely to fall down than software is to crash. But that's just different failure modes. Projects are still not very predictable.

Re: Programmers should not call themselves engineers (2015)

#122

Post by Alex3917 »

eru wrote: post #113
Alex3917 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This misses the point that all other types of engineering are regulated and licensed. Software is going to be regulated, licensed, and unionized within the next ten years. The main reason it's not currently is because the best practices have historically changed every couple years due to Moore's Law, but there is about to be an extended slowdown that will give the industry the time it needs to get its act together.

Care to take a bet on that? We just need to nail down some details: what jurisdiction(s) are we talking about? And what do you mean by licenced?: eg people without the licence won't be allowed to program computers? What odds are you offering? I am pretty confident, so I am happy to give you ten to one odds. Ie you pay me 1 dollar if no regulation&unionization happens, I pay you 10 if it does.

Not interested in betting.

> What jurisdiction(s) are we talking about?

But to clarify, I'm talking about the U.S.

> And what do you mean by licenced?: eg people without the licence won't be allowed to program computers?

I think at least one of the big tech firms will be unionized within the next five years, with more following soon after. I think initially people already employed will be grandfathered in without any licensing requirements. But within a few years, I think folks are going to have to demonstrate basic knowledge of security principles in order to become union members.

I don't think you will need a certification to work in the industry in the immediate future, but I think that tech employers will have a clear choice in choosing between union and non union employees.

Re: Programmers should not call themselves engineers (2015)

#123

Post by eru »

ubersoldat2k7 wrote: post #67
totalperspectiv wrote: post #38

Tell this to those reading resumes. Until then I will use the most impressive possible title I can reasonably use.

Exactly! Where do I get the JS Ninja diploma?

Please post $100 and a self-addressed envelope to me, and I'll reply with your diploma.

Re: Programmers should not call themselves engineers (2015)

#124

Post by eru »

746F7475 wrote: post #100
k__ wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a degree that says I'm an scientists, do I have to call myself a Software Scientist now? :D

No, but you can call yourself Data Scientist, I hear they make big bucks what with the big data and analysis and stuff.

I heard a Data Scientist is an actuary that works in Silicon Valley. (Though, actuaries are highly regulated.)

Re: Programmers should not call themselves engineers (2015)

#125

Post by booleandilemma »

eru wrote: post #117
booleandilemma wrote: post #95

There is a title arms race happening with programmers. If everyone is going to call themselves a Software Engineer on LinkedIn, and I decide to label myself as a Developer, or even worse, a Programmer, I'm going to miss out on opportunities that the "engineers" are going to get. If you don't want programmers calling themselves engineers, just make it illegal for us to do so. I know Texas and Canada already do.

If you are relying on LinkedIn to get opportunities, you are going to miss out on a lot of them. (LinkedIn is a joke. And nobody gives a damn about what people call themselves.)

I know there is a lot of hate for LinkedIn here, and I agree 90% of LinkedIn is crap, but I did get my last job through LinkedIn, so I have to admit it's not all bad.

Re: Programmers should not call themselves engineers (2015)

#126

Post by Panini_Jones »

ohstopitu wrote: post #106
naasking wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Certification does exist....it's not widely used or accepted That's an understatement. Was speaking to a fellow engineer recently, and he claimed that there are really only two licensed software engineers in all of Toronto. We probably have tens of thousands of software developers.

The only place where I've seen the certification as a requirement is govt jobs (and UfT I believe). Apart from those two, I've yet to find even a reference for it (let alone a requirement) - which is a cycle because one of the requirements of being a PEO is 12 months of work experience under a PEO (which won't happen as there aren't enough PEOs - the chicken and egg problem).

Can you link to the U of T job with the cert requirement?

Re: Programmers should not call themselves engineers (2015)

#127

Post by vatotemking »

eru wrote: post #111
vatotemking wrote: post #108

Still better than calling yourself code wrangler/ JS ninja. Kidding aside, whats stopping software dev from being regulated and certified in 2017? The previous reason I heard of was that tech changes too rapidly to be standardized.

Where's the demand for that? Companies don't even trust university degrees right now. The most a degree gets you is a foot in the door; you'll still have to pass a grilling technical interview process. Making certificates an official requirement just raises artificial barriers to entry, but won't make people actually better. (If you have a good idea for how to certify actual competence, I am all ears. I'd like to upg…

I think the presence of this article indicates that there is a demand.

> Companies don't even trust university degrees right now.

This might be true in the US but may not be in other countries. I just read on a separate comment how the label "engineer" requires a degree in Canada and EU and has legal repercussions if used otherwise.

> Making certificates an official requirement just raises artificial barriers to entry, but won't make people actually better.

I think it would actually raise the quality of software and bring order/accountability to this otherwise chaotic and "wild west" (ehem JS ecosystem) world of software dev. And the low barrier of entry is a two edged sword. On one side, it does allow more people to code. On the other, more people = more less-talented devs thus more crappy software.

Re: Programmers should not call themselves engineers (2015)

#128

Post by krotton »

hashkb wrote: post #36
ergo14 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Poland at least you have Physics and Math that you have to pass like on other engineering fields. And you have to create thesis work that you have to defend in front of jury to get your degree. I'd expect it would be similar in France.

Many schools in the US also require physics and math for a CS degree. It's not the degree that's at issue, it's professional licensing and regulations.

Well, at least in Poland (and I'm not sure about the rest of Europe) having graduated from an engineering school (a polytechnic) serves as formal licensing, even for classic engineering disciplines, like e.g. civil engineering. So in order to be able to take responsibilities and perform work of a civil engineer, you are required to have graduated from a civil engineering faculty, but have no additional certification after you do. Software development is also thought in polytechnics (among other options) and you formally become an engineer after graduation (though it has no real life consequences) - I'm formally a software engineer myself for example.

Re: Programmers should not call themselves engineers (2015)

#130

Post by eru »

weddpros wrote: post #62
lprubin wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about failures in medical software, airplane safety software, or military software?

Most planes crash because of something else than software... Most casualties in the medical domain are not caused by software... to say nothing about war casualties. It's not sand in the oil, it's the lack of a filter, that cause a crash. It's not human error, it's badly designed UI. It's not aging, it's improper material choice. It's not a manufacturing problem, it's a design problem with the manufacturing process.…

To round out your point: some failures are the result of perfectly valid cost/risk trade-offs.
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