California has the USA’s highest poverty rate, when factoring in cost-of-living • Hacker News Board

Re: California has the USA’s highest poverty rate, when factoring in cost-of-living

#121

Post by gozur88 » Sun, Mar 12, 2017, 8:28 PM UTC

laurencerowe wrote: post #42

xienze wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are we talking about immigrants or "immigrants"? I seriously doubt the immigrants of the illegal -- excuse me, "undocumented" -- variety are anything but poor. That's the reason the Mexican government is so eager to keep the whole thing going -- they get to simultaneously foist their poor upon the US while said poor send back billions in remittances. It's a major industry for Mexico, believe it or not.

Net illegal immigration from Mexico has been negative since 2009. http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/03/02/what-we-know...

Nobody knows for sure. There are only guesses for the number of immigrants and the net migration flow.

Re: California has the USA’s highest poverty rate, when factoring in cost-of-living

#122

Post by gozur88 » Sun, Mar 12, 2017, 8:41 PM UTC

jackcosgrove wrote: post #107

pm90 wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair though, its not like the tax money is going into the pockets of corrupt politicians (well maybe not all of it). California is the most progressive state and spends that money on its residents via education, healthcare, scientific research etc. I would be willing to pay more taxes if the State made good use of what I pay them.

California's public education system is below average. It is not what it used to be before Prop 13. California's public funds are increasingly going towards paying public employee pensions. Given how generous these pensions are and how they can be manipulated for maximum payout I would consider it corruption.

>California's public education system is below average. It is not what it used to be before Prop 13.

That has nothing to do with Prop 13 or money, though. You pay more in taxes today than you did pre-Prop 13, and in constant dollars we spend double what we spent on k-12 education in the early '70s.

>California's public funds are increasingly going towards paying public employee pensions.

Yes. By and large this is where the money is going.

Re: California has the USA’s highest poverty rate, when factoring in cost-of-living

#123

Post by tathougies » Sun, Mar 12, 2017, 9:32 PM UTC

Not surprising as california also has one of the lowest minimum wages in real terms. For all this talk about progressive politics and a 15/hr minimum wage, 'backwards' states in the south have real minimum wages well above 15 CA USD/hr. Some even surpass 20/hr. Mean while California wages would be the equivalent of around $3.50/he in their terms.

So much for progressive politics

Re: California has the USA’s highest poverty rate, when factoring in cost-of-living

#124

Post by tathougies » Sun, Mar 12, 2017, 9:34 PM UTC

pm90 wrote: post #94

laughfactory wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except they all face the same tax burden which, as a California resident until recently, is quite high: sales tax, property tax, income tax...they tax everything there, and there are few exemptions. Even at $60K the taxes in CA will eat you alive. Great weather (in SoCal), but the sunshine tax, it seemed to us, was perhaps as much as 50%!

To be fair though, its not like the tax money is going into the pockets of corrupt politicians (well maybe not all of it). California is the most progressive state and spends that money on its residents via education, healthcare, scientific research etc. I would be willing to pay more taxes if the State made good use of what I pay them.

Lol wut?? Last time I tried to call the state, they disconnected me after waiting for twenty minutes, because the 'lines were too busy'.

I'd rather keep my money thanks

Re: California has the USA’s highest poverty rate, when factoring in cost-of-living

#125

Post by edblarney » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 12:21 AM UTC

objclxt wrote: post #109

edblarney wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The poorest people are rural whites and southern/inner city African Americans. " I don't agree. There are very large numbers of Central/South Americans who come to Cali, largely unskilled, and they occupy the biggest part of the economic underclass. Think of how many are not even 'on the books'? I'd argue it's very difficult for an undocumented person to make that much. It's not a 'moral' statement, it's just a real…

19% of SF's homeless are Hispanic, versus 15% of the general population. 36% of SF's homeless are African American, versus 7% of the general population. The data doesn't back you up. The very poorest unable to even find housing are statistically more likely to be African American than Hispanic. [1]: http://sfmayor.org/sites/default/files/FileCenter/Documents/...

SF is not California.

Moreover, it's not even the 'Bay Area' - it's a tiny, unrepresentative spot of 700 000 people.

Also - 'homelessness' is not the same thing as 'under the poverty line'.

California is 33% latino, and less than 7% African American.

African Americans might be more likely to be 'in poverty', sadly, but there are nearly 5x more Latino Americans than African Americans in California.

This does not even include a large population undocumented people, who are far more likely to be Latino than Black.

Here is the data:

https://www.census.gov/prod/2013pubs/acsbr11-17.pdf

In the US, Latino Americans are just slightly less likely to be 'in poverty' than African Americans. In California, with a 5x more population, that would very roughly boil down to 5x more Latino Americans in poverty than African Americans.

Hence my point.

Re: California has the USA’s highest poverty rate, when factoring in cost-of-living

#126

Post by deelowe » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 2:30 AM UTC

danjoc wrote: post #102

estsauver wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The other thing of course to remember is just shipping food out of the US and into the developing world is how you break local farming economies. Who wants to buy food from the local farmer when there's ample free food from relief programs. Development is hard.

Most of the food wasted is "ugly" food. It's not putting farmers out of business. It could keep starving people alive though.

Which completely misses the point. To summarize what the parent is suggesting:

"Teach a man to fish..."

Re: California has the USA’s highest poverty rate, when factoring in cost-of-living

#127

Post by Spooky23 » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 3:16 AM UTC

edblarney wrote: post #125

objclxt wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

19% of SF's homeless are Hispanic, versus 15% of the general population. 36% of SF's homeless are African American, versus 7% of the general population. The data doesn't back you up. The very poorest unable to even find housing are statistically more likely to be African American than Hispanic. [1]: http://sfmayor.org/sites/default/files/FileCenter/Documents/...

SF is not California. Moreover, it's not even the 'Bay Area' - it's a tiny, unrepresentative spot of 700 000 people. Also - 'homelessness' is not the same thing as 'under the poverty line'. California is 33% latino, and less than 7% African American. African Americans might be more likely to be 'in poverty', sadly, but there are nearly 5x more Latino Americans than African Americans in California. This does not even…

From NYC: "African-American and Latino New Yorkers are disproportionately affected by homelessness. Approximately 58 percent of New York City homeless shelter residents are African-American, 31 percent are Latino, 7 percent are white, less than 1 percent are Asian-American, and 3 percent are of unknown race/ethnicity."

You also need to be very careful with context and analysis of "latino". Statistically, Latino is an overlay term representing cultural origin. Many African Americans identify as Latino.

Re: California has the USA’s highest poverty rate, when factoring in cost-of-living

#128

Post by true_tuna » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 4:44 AM UTC

throwaway76543 wrote: post #85

ricw wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The direct negative effect on the quality of life of high housing costs is astonishing. Yet there's no real public uproar. When the price of gas goes up, seemingly everyone is up in arms. But housing?! People complain, but no where near as much as they should. In areas with high housing costs, this should be the primary political issue. I guess nepotism just wins the argument...

It's a split issue. Renters want prices to go down. Owners want prices to go up. Who wins the political clash? Are there more voting owners, or voting renters? Generally there are more owners, though California has one of the lowest home ownership rates at around 53%. Cities draw this average down -- most suburbs have higher ownership rates. With this in mind it shouldn't be a surprise that owners outvote renters.

Renters fight new construction too. "Gentrification will raise our rents". It's absurd how hard it is to get a permit to build in SF. Mountain View fought new housing construction for a decade as google was ramping up. Nobody seems to remember first year economics when it comes to construction on their block.

Re: California has the USA’s highest poverty rate, when factoring in cost-of-living

#129

Post by jldugger » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 8:45 AM UTC

ricw wrote: post #81

NumberSix wrote: post #77

Urban areas in California, where most of the people live, such as the Silicon Valley have extremely high home ownership and apartment rental costs. The article notes this briefly and somewhat obliquely, but it is worth emphasizing. The median home price in San Jose, CA is about $850,000 at present (March 12, 2017) according to Zillow. The average rent for a one bedroom apartment in San Jose is about $2473 per month (…

The direct negative effect on the quality of life of high housing costs is astonishing. Yet there's no real public uproar. When the price of gas goes up, seemingly everyone is up in arms. But housing?! People complain, but no where near as much as they should. In areas with high housing costs, this should be the primary political issue. I guess nepotism just wins the argument...

> In areas with high housing costs, this should be the primary political issue.

Probably the best way to think of America is a society of land speculators. Europe was full, so we moved over the pond to settle a new land. During the expansion westward, communities built their towns up in the hopes that theirs would be the one that makes it big.

Today, renters are treated as slightly suspect drifters with 'no sense of community,' which is a coded way of saying they're okay with falling property values. Which is threatening in a society where the majority are invested in real estate. It's not too hard to look at policies and see the implicit high property value bias. Environmental regulations, property tax moratoriums, public schools, interest rate policies, urban growth boundaries, public transportation; they all tie in, if a bit obliquely.

So I'm not surprised in a country where 63 percent of people own the home they live in, that high housing prices aren't a political priority. When we've all collectively made a bet that home prices go up, should we be surprised when policies are voted in to support that opinion?

Re: California has the USA’s highest poverty rate, when factoring in cost-of-living

#130

Post by edblarney » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 10:21 AM UTC

Spooky23 wrote: post #127

edblarney wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SF is not California. Moreover, it's not even the 'Bay Area' - it's a tiny, unrepresentative spot of 700 000 people. Also - 'homelessness' is not the same thing as 'under the poverty line'. California is 33% latino, and less than 7% African American. African Americans might be more likely to be 'in poverty', sadly, but there are nearly 5x more Latino Americans than African Americans in California. This does not even…

From NYC: "African-American and Latino New Yorkers are disproportionately affected by homelessness. Approximately 58 percent of New York City homeless shelter residents are African-American, 31 percent are Latino, 7 percent are white, less than 1 percent are Asian-American, and 3 percent are of unknown race/ethnicity." You also need to be very careful with context and analysis of "latino". Statistically, Latino is an…

?

Again, NYC is not America.

Again, we're talking about poverty rates, not homeless rates.

Yes, I understand 'Latino' is not always central/south American in the classic sense, but fyi - Latino's are far more likely to be classified as 'White' than 'African American' - i.e. Spanish, Cubans etc.