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Why Do So Many Incompetent Men Become Leaders? (2013)

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Re: Why Do So Many Incompetent Men Become Leaders? (2013)

#121

Post by dandersh »

sebastos wrote: post #56
jondubois wrote: post #36

I find that confidence is really powerful, even among engineers (who you would think are rational). I noticed that some engineers can come across as extremely smart because they talk fast and can think fast - Also, they are really good at defending their ideas when put on the spot but if you dig deeper afterwards you might often find that while their solution is good, it's not the best one. It always takes time to co…

+1 for the fast-talking engineer phenomenon. I think quickness of thought is a fitness that can be exercised, mostly orthogonally to deep thought. We all eventually find someone who thinks and talks faster than ourselves, but indeed we also eventually become that person to another. If you find yourself feeling like you're 10 steps ahead, the best thing to do is give ample room for your conversational foil to express…

The most important thing is being open to the fact that you will be wrong. I've lost track of the number of times I have machine gunned out ideas/solutions only to have parts (or even all of it) picked apart by myself or others.

Your final point is the most important. Ultimately the process should be about solving the problem in the best manner possible, not how person X thinks it should be solved.

Re: Why Do So Many Incompetent Men Become Leaders? (2013)

#122

Post by plg »

pfarnsworth wrote: post #8

Because talking with confidence will go 90% of the way to convincing people that you know what you're talking about. So often I've worked with assholes who talk with such confidence that most people won't bother filtering the garbage coming from their mouths. They just believe it. It's almost eerie how effectively talking with confidence works. It's so effective that when you complain about these charlatans, YOU look…

I recall an actual study where researchers had participants listen to people who were (a) very confident but turned out to be incorrect or (b) neutral but correct. Then they rated these people on their competence. The confident people were rated as more competent even though they were incorrect more often.

It's depressing as hell.

Re: Why Do So Many Incompetent Men Become Leaders? (2013)

#123

Post by Mikeb85 »

In general, leaders seem incompetent because their decisions are scrutinized to no end. Often though, they're forced to make a decision in a limited amount of time with imperfect information.

Also, one thing I've found after managing people, running businesses, etc..., is that it's more important to make a decision than it is to make the right decision. If you try something and fail, it's easy enough to pivot to another idea. If you make the right choice in the first place, great. If you consult everyone and take too long to make a decision, you're fucked.

Re: Why Do So Many Incompetent Men Become Leaders? (2013)

#124

Post by bjornsing »

ltbarcly3 wrote: post #46

I would say that it's not that incompetent men become leaders. Certainly men are over-represented, but I would wager that woman leaders are no more competent on average. The truth is almost everyone is incompetent and leaders get more scrutiny.

Add to that that leadership in most cases (in tech) is really hard...

Re: Why Do So Many Incompetent Men Become Leaders? (2013)

#125

Post by trhway »

belorn wrote: post #115
Shubley wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry but this is pure myth. There has never been a human society where primary political/executive power was vested in women, except some developed and recent examples. The idea of tribes controlled by women just never happened; not once. It's wishful revisionism motivated by modern politics. Pinker discusses this a bit in this speech https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n691pLhQBkw And of course other have noted the…

You have a small farm community of four houses, a few hundred/thousands years ago. One of the families has a animal die and is in dire need for help. Who do they ask for help? Some warrior, sitting on a iron throne and passing down judgment from high in one the houses, or is it the old women of the village who carries the memories of who did whom a favor and is responsible for the community threads that binds the fam…

>Some warrior, sitting on a iron throne and passing down judgment from high in one the houses, or is it the old women of the village who carries the memories of who did whom a favor and is responsible for the community threads that binds the families together. Who has the power to make the decision?

if recent thousand of years of history is any guidance - the warrior on the throne will be asked to punish the witch[es] (some of those old women) for the curse that caused the animal to die, and the property of those witches would be shared between the warrior and the family of the reporter.

Re: Why Do So Many Incompetent Men Become Leaders? (2013)

#127

Post by jldugger »

TommyXin wrote: post #66

Really bad article. Not surprised its coming from HBR. No facts or data to back up what he is saying. How do you measure someone being incompetent? Since when does competence make you a good leader? Author believes CEOs should be selected by having them take a competence and personality test... Trying to act and plan for an uncertain future as a CEO will make any human (male or female) seem incompetent.

> Really bad article. Not surprised its coming from HBR. No facts or data to back up what he is saying.

HBR is a practitioner's magazine; it's purpose is less to offer the evidence and more keep readers abreast of research and thinking in the field. Did feel the citations in the article were insufficient? There seems to be a number of them for any interested reader to follow up on.

For example: http://is.muni.cz/el/1421/jaro2009/PSB_516/6390561/w5.pdf

> How do you measure someone being incompetent? Since when does competence make you a good leader?

Maybe there's some angle I haven't considered, but competence at being a good leader is basically the same thing as being a good leader. Unless you actively set out to be a bad one I suppose.

As for measuring, it gets mushy fairly quickly when looking at meta-analysis. You'll want to dig one level deeper to get an understanding of that; I'll pass personally ;)

> Author believes CEOs should be selected by having them take a competence and personality test...

Virtually all publications aimed at practitioners are rife with conflict of interest, and HBR is no different. The author is the CEO of an assessment company.

Re: Why Do So Many Incompetent Men Become Leaders? (2013)

#128

Post by crandont »

bluejekyll wrote: post #113
pfarnsworth wrote: post #8

Because talking with confidence will go 90% of the way to convincing people that you know what you're talking about. So often I've worked with assholes who talk with such confidence that most people won't bother filtering the garbage coming from their mouths. They just believe it. It's almost eerie how effectively talking with confidence works. It's so effective that when you complain about these charlatans, YOU look…

I wonder if this is all of it though. When we're talking about incompetence, what I think of is people who are incapable of doing something. For people who can't do things, they need to ask others to help them. Initially, when they are not leaders, they become good at asking for help . This becomes a form of training someone to be good at delegation . Something I see a lot in IC's is that they are very good at doing…

"As I grow older, I pay less attention to what men say. I just watch what they do." - Andrew Carnegie

I feel you found a good explanation for the incompetence/confidence paradox. You really can get far if you just talk about things you think you can do with confidence and conviction. I actually think everyone who's successful has experienced this. Sometimes you just have to bullshit, but do it confidently.

However, the reason many people fail in regulating this disparity is that they don't know they're incompetent (Dunning-Kruger effect). They can't actually do; only speak. Truly successful people have enough self-efficacy to know when they're not good at something. They have just the right amount of self-doubt. But that's not enough. They must also have the drive and humility to correct their shortcomings.

This goes along with your thinking, because the obvious response (in a workplace) by someone who doesn't know how to do something is to find someone else who can do it. That being said, delegating isn't the key. Recognition of your own incompetence is. Delegating, and edifying yourself, is the proper response though.

Early on in my career, I wanted to do everything myself. And I did. I would do stellar work on a few projects, then eventually I'd take on too much and things would fall on the floor. Some superiors saw this as incompetence.

Now I confidently accept too much work, but I'm not afraid to say "I need help with this." At my current company I've gone from doing solitary projects to having 3 other developers work on my projects under my direction. I'm not a manager, or even a lead. Hell, I don't know half the things I'll need on a particular project I accept, but I know the other developers have that knowledge.

Re: Why Do So Many Incompetent Men Become Leaders? (2013)

#129

Post by projektir »

Shubley wrote: post #78
sh6678 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think its a race issue so much as a physical appearance issue. Height, attractiveness, facial structure, body size. Certain people look "presidential" and they command a lot of automatic respect just based on appearance. There are plenty of minority people that have this quality. There are plenty of white males lacking this quality. Look-ism is the huge issue that is almost never talked about. In most compani…

Let's also not forget ageism, heightism, voice-ism (positive affect of rich voices).

And ableism and...

There probably needs to be a general purpose word for this...

Re: Why Do So Many Incompetent Men Become Leaders? (2013)

#130

Post by gozur88 »

rhizome wrote: post #116
gozur88 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Pursuant to the topic, though, leadership pays more and therefore is populated by sexist men hiring each other. Is there any evidence this is true?

Occam's Razor points to The Iron Law of Oligarchies/Institutions much more than "bad luck."

I agree. However, Michels' Iron Law of Oligarchies doesn't have anything to do with sexism.
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