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Why Do So Many Incompetent Men Become Leaders? (2013)

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Re: Why Do So Many Incompetent Men Become Leaders? (2013)

#41

Post by trustfundbaby »

pfarnsworth wrote: post #32
trustfundbaby wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the risk of being divisive, this will generally only work if you're white, if you're a minority or a woman, there's way more pushback on all those things, even when you're right. Seen it many times.

First off, this is false. I've seen plenty of races and women succeed unworthily because they talk with extreme confidence. Secondly, are you only talking about the US because you're American? Because there are plenty of other countries in this world, and it's true in all of them.

> Secondly, are you only talking about the US because you're American?

yep.

Re: Why Do So Many Incompetent Men Become Leaders? (2013)

#42

Post by trhway »

jcranmer wrote: post #35
trhway wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>if you're a minority or a woman for hundreds of thousands of years having your tribe represented by a confident male (selected from the majority of the tribe) was beneficial (at least we can conclude that now based on the survivor bias principle) We still have those cave man instincts with us to a high degree. The point of civilization development is to reign in cave man instincts inside and among us. Seems that it…

The principle of sexual inequality (and male superiority) appears to be a relatively recent phenomenon--arising only around the time of agriculture. Even subsequent to the development of agricultures, plenty of civilizations have practiced matrilineal succession, with no apparent cost to their dealings with neighboring societies (indeed, some even flourished at the expense of others--consider the Iroquois, for exampl…

>The principle of sexual inequality (and male superiority) appears to be a relatively recent phenomenon

Recent? Even gorilla have males bigger (and thus leading the pack) than females and so far prehistoric humans are known to have been that way too.

It is exactly the rise of civilization(agriculture, technology, complex social structure, etc) which allowed for situations with female leadership.

Re: Why Do So Many Incompetent Men Become Leaders? (2013)

#43

Post by 1337biz »

trustfundbaby wrote: post #18
pfarnsworth wrote: post #8

Because talking with confidence will go 90% of the way to convincing people that you know what you're talking about. So often I've worked with assholes who talk with such confidence that most people won't bother filtering the garbage coming from their mouths. They just believe it. It's almost eerie how effectively talking with confidence works. It's so effective that when you complain about these charlatans, YOU look…

At the risk of being divisive, this will generally only work if you're white, if you're a minority or a woman, there's way more pushback on all those things, even when you're right. Seen it many times.

Oh great, a race and gender discussion based on an internet user's personal opinion. That's going to be fascinating!

Re: Why Do So Many Incompetent Men Become Leaders? (2013)

#44

Post by armini »

pfarnsworth wrote: post #8

Because talking with confidence will go 90% of the way to convincing people that you know what you're talking about. So often I've worked with assholes who talk with such confidence that most people won't bother filtering the garbage coming from their mouths. They just believe it. It's almost eerie how effectively talking with confidence works. It's so effective that when you complain about these charlatans, YOU look…

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Re: Why Do So Many Incompetent Men Become Leaders? (2013)

#45

Post by stupidcar »

One of the most interesting facts in Francis Fukuyama's The Origins of Political Order was that the most primordial form of human social groupings, small bands of hunter gatherers, are organised along egalitarian and democratic lines, without any recognisable leader.

There may be an individual who the other members of the band listen to more than others, but only due to their proven experience and wisdom. And there is no concept of authority, e.g. the ability to enforce a decision upon people against their better judgement.

More complex forms of social organisation and hierarchy are inventions, and relatively recent ones. I suspect that is why they so often display these kinds of dysfunctions. As a species, we haven't yet evolved the skills necessary to behave optimally in situations where we have to engage in constant non-violent negotiations with strangers over issues of power, authority, friendship, employment, sex, etc. Instead, we try to create institutions that enforce an optimum solution, but this produces a circular problem, because these institutions are prey to the same dysfunctions.

Re: Why Do So Many Incompetent Men Become Leaders? (2013)

#47

Post by ue_ »

stupidcar wrote: post #45

One of the most interesting facts in Francis Fukuyama's The Origins of Political Order was that the most primordial form of human social groupings, small bands of hunter gatherers, are organised along egalitarian and democratic lines, without any recognisable leader. There may be an individual who the other members of the band listen to more than others, but only due to their proven experience and wisdom. And there i…

Anyone interested in organising along these principles might look at anarcho-primitivism or even anarchism. Recommended reading is Bakunin (What is Property?), Kropotkin (The Conquest of Bread) and pretty much anything by Emma Goldman.

Re: Why Do So Many Incompetent Men Become Leaders? (2013)

#48

Post by Clanan »

pfarnsworth wrote: post #8

Because talking with confidence will go 90% of the way to convincing people that you know what you're talking about. So often I've worked with assholes who talk with such confidence that most people won't bother filtering the garbage coming from their mouths. They just believe it. It's almost eerie how effectively talking with confidence works. It's so effective that when you complain about these charlatans, YOU look…

This behavior is reinforced by current child-rearing and educational practices as well. Think about how much emphasis is placed on blind confidence, self-esteem, extroversion, etc. (at least in the U.S.). So it makes sense that confidence would be rewarded later in life when society defines it as a key metric before then.

I recall reading a book which posited that this shift to confidence over other "interior" characteristics (e.g. virtues) was due to the post-war consumerism boom when salesmanship became a lucrative career. What makes a good salesman? Confidence.

Re: Why Do So Many Incompetent Men Become Leaders? (2013)

#50

Post by NTDF9 »

>> In other words, what it takes to get the job is not just different from, but also the reverse of, what it takes to do the job well

Did it take this long to figure out that most processes in the world don't select the people for the job?

Think about the following: - SAT score based admissions (numbers matter)

- Tech Job interviews (number of problems solved, mistakes made, time taken to solve matters)

- Data driven Quarterly metrics and performance reviews (stupid metrics matter)

- Running for Presidency (Count of votes matter)

- Winning at WoW (Kills matter)

I can easily see most of these processes as a game. It involves a "System" and "Scoring in that system".

The ones who win the game don't necessary do post-game activities better, unless the system selects for that. I don't know...don't they teach this in MBA classes anymore?

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