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Computer Science Education

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Re: Computer Science Education

#121

Post by dwaltrip »

wolfgke wrote: post #91
GrantSolar wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Why in the age of a _World_ Wide Web and "post-discrimination" are large companies such as Google deliberately targeting specific groups? Because the gender ratio in STEM fields skews heavily towards men. >What will be in the girls-only code program that might be inappropriate for boys? I can't imagine there would be anything that was 'inappropriate', though there may be some boys less excited about making a dress l…

> Because the gender ratio in STEM fields skews heavily towards men. Girls are free to study what they want. If they don't want to study STEM fields - their problem, which I don't feel having to care for.

Apparently it's your problem as well, because you appear to be personally upset by a program that only helps them.

Re: Computer Science Education

#122

Post by mcguire »

wolfgke wrote: post #109
shuntress wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to be worried about over-correction where there is clearly none. If we had a CS field dominated almost entirely by women then the "women only" programs would be undesirable. This is a man in a boat protesting that a drowning woman is being helped out of the water but he is receiving no such equivalent assistance.

> You seem to be worried about over-correction where there is clearly none. I live in Germany - and there the situation is IMHO different.

The majority of high skilled tech jobs aren't held by men? There are no selective barriers to entry?

Re: Computer Science Education

#123

Post by mcguire »

paulddraper wrote: post #92
pliptvo wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Problem: There's a massive gender imbalance in CS and amongst the coding community. There are loads of men and hardly any women. Most of half the population would never consider working for us or our partners. Solution: Make a website which specifically encourages young girls to see themselves as coders. Problem: We have invested loads of money into our Irish, Indian, Australian/NZ offices, but we could increase our…

> What is the problem? Discrimination. It has been justified for centuries with all manner of reasoned arguments. Hopefully we will eventually learn discrimination is a Bad Idea.

Have you a better one?

Doing nothing isn't a better idea.

Re: Computer Science Education

#124

Post by reitanqild »

pliptvo wrote: post #100
reitanqild wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No problem for you. And I have learned to live with it but as a young boy it was extremely frustrating to see girls getting advantages throughout the whole school system just for being girls. Now I am fully aware that I have certain advantages ("privileges") as well but as I said: when you are young this can be extremely frustrating.

I can't speak for your particular experience at school, but in general I think it's a shame that people whose lives are, as you say, "privileged" by the systems in which we live feel like they are at a disadvantage because of concerted attempts to raise others to their level.

You know, I was a lot younger then.

Furthermore I was answering a direct question: "What is the problem?"

Also I put the "privileged" word in quotes for a reason: while being male gives me a number of advantages it also gives me a number of disadvantages.

Furthermore there is all the rest: coming from a low socioeconomic background should account for a lot as well (buying a pc was a huge deal - I think I was 15 when my dad finally managed to get hold of one, going abroad for holiday was never an option, working unpaid at my dads business was pretty much expected and I started working as a farm hand with other farms when I was 15. )

As I said I don't care much but I think I can explain why for a lot of young men the idea of male "privilege" feels like a reality they don't experience as for them any male privilege seems to be overshadowed by a number of other factors.

Re: Computer Science Education

#125

Post by metaobject »

wolfgke wrote: post #111
hdctambien wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So you tolerate that a complete sex shall be punished for former sins This is not a zero-sum game. Creating a new opportunity for girls does not remove an existing opportunity for a boy. > But at least to me it seems that mostly boys (with few exceptions) seem to love doing this - in particular from young age on Maybe you should try talking to more girls and asking them what they are interested in.

> > So you tolerate that a complete sex shall be punished for former sins > This is not a zero-sum game. Creating a new opportunity for girls does not remove an existing opportunity for a boy. Not when quotas are involved. In Germany, where I live, every few years serious attempts to introduce women quota for companies are attempted to pass as a law (which typically are only prevented in the last moment because of ma…

So are there any gender quotas currently in place?

Re: Computer Science Education

#126

Post by mcguire »

RUG3Y wrote: post #112
pliptvo wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what part of healthcare are men systemically impeded from involvement?

I don't think it can be demonstrated that women are systematically impeded from involvement in STEM fields and CS when there are many programs actively targeting women and girls. A skilled woman in CS appears to have a huge advantage in hiring, at least in any company I've been in.

Problem: women face selective barriers to entry in this field.

Solution: introduce programs promoting the field to women and girls.

Problem: women have a huge advantage due to the programs.

...?

Re: Computer Science Education

#127

Post by wolfgke »

mcguire wrote: post #122
wolfgke wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You seem to be worried about over-correction where there is clearly none. I live in Germany - and there the situation is IMHO different.

The majority of high skilled tech jobs aren't held by men? There are no selective barriers to entry?

People are free to study what they want. If there are more men who want to study a STEM subject, this will of course lead to a majority of men. Indeed, typical STEM subjects have no limitation on your A-level mark (Numerus Clausus) for being allowed to study it. So there is clearly no selective barrier to entry (Numerus Clausus) [but I'm not a native speaker of English - so it can be that "selective barriers to entry" has a subcontext in English that I'm not aware of].

Re: Computer Science Education

#128

Post by wolfgke »

dwaltrip wrote: post #121
wolfgke wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because the gender ratio in STEM fields skews heavily towards men. Girls are free to study what they want. If they don't want to study STEM fields - their problem, which I don't feel having to care for.

Apparently it's your problem as well, because you appear to be personally upset by a program that only helps them.

I am always upset over discriminatory programs. If one would replace "women only" by "white people only", you would probably be upset, too.

Re: Computer Science Education

#129

Post by mcguire »

cardiffguy wrote: post #70
m0nty wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Looks great if you're Indian, Irish or female. Edit: Or AU/NZ, missed that one.

I wonder if I'd qualify. I have dyslexia and dyspraxia but always feel like "learning difficulties" put you in the camp of "not disabled enough". I managed to get a first class degree in compsci and recieved the standard disability grant from the uni.

You got a disability grant? Would that be considered reverse discrimination?

Re: Computer Science Education

#130

Post by [deleted] »

defnfoo wrote: post #118
NotSammyHagar wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was past 40 when I was hired at Google, worked there for almost 10 years, knew many other older devs. I disagree that they were discriminatory. At least in my experience, that was not an issue.

The experience of those filing the law suit differs from yours. You may have known some older devs, but the numbers are very clear: the average age of a google employee is 29. The US national average is 42. Google itself is not very diverse by most metrics. Maybe they should practice what they preach? http://time.com/4391031/google-diversity-statistics-2016/

[deleted]
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