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Dart in 2016: Fastest growing language at Google, 2nd fastest in TIOBE

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Re: Dart in 2016: Fastest growing language at Google, 2nd fastest in TIOBE

#121

Post by munificent »

leftrightupdown wrote: post #32
devsquid wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The one issue I had with Dart, was typing was optional. But at the last DartCon they announced they are creating a strong typed mode, which forces typing and type correctness and it generates higher preforming code. Yay!

i think strong typing generates same code as optional typing if you are not using dart dev compiler.

That's true today, but we're integrating strong mode into the VM and dart2js right now. Soon, the whole platform will have full support for it and all of the benefits you get from a sound type system.

Re: Dart in 2016: Fastest growing language at Google, 2nd fastest in TIOBE

#122

Post by munificent »

shadowmint wrote: post #30
isoos wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apparently there is at least one reddit moderator that doesn't like Dart and actively bans users when they try to post legitimate articles in webdev forums: https://plus.google.com/+MontyRasmussen/posts/UWyjF5S14Uo I'm not saying that this is general to moderators, but some people try to deny it exists or is relevant (probably because they have invested in other toolchains), and if your filter-bubble is controlled by…

I think that's a bit conspiratoralist. If dart was popular you'd see the flag being flown in multiple places; you dont. Its not. Even the /r/dart subreddit is dead. It's not because of some conspiracy to bury dart news; people just don't care. Community is important.

> Even the /r/dart subreddit is dead.

/r/dartlang is the main Dart subreddit.

Re: Dart in 2016: Fastest growing language at Google, 2nd fastest in TIOBE

#123

Post by munificent »

garaetjjte wrote: post #115

Don't use Dart for web applications. It is horrible. Hard to integrate with js libraries, lacking features from js, big fat runtime and buggy. It may be good language as replacement for server side javascript, but definitely not for web apps using dart2js.

> lacking features from js

What features do you find lacking?

Re: Dart in 2016: Fastest growing language at Google, 2nd fastest in TIOBE

#124

Post by chriswarbo »

devsquid wrote: post #97
pjmlp wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me the project died when Google decided it wasn't worth it to support it any longer in Chrome and Angular team decided to use TypeScript instead. Regarding Flutter, I watched the conference where it was presented and none of the devices I own was able to launch the application. https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=io.flutter.gal... Unless Google does actually use the language to the point a few well know…

I feel your sentiment. But I always thought getting browsers to adopt Dart was a crazy and impossible idea. I was actually glad when I heard they had abandoned that plan. Flutter confuses me. Its annoying you have to use their DSL for layouts rather than HTML and what about native widgets, like WebViews or VideoPlayers? With them drastically speeding up the Dart2JS compiler and implementing a strong typed mode, I am…

> I feel your sentiment. But I always thought getting browsers to adopt Dart was a crazy and impossible idea. I was actually glad when I heard they had abandoned that plan.

I agree; a saner approach than adding one particular language at a time to browsers is to give browsers support/hooks which arbitrary language implementors can target, without having to perform gymnastics like compiling to JS.

It looks like WebAssembly is (at least the first step) in that direction, so Dart and others can use that as and when it matures, without creating a legacy of language-specific issues for future generations of Web implementors and archivists do deal with.

Re: Dart in 2016: Fastest growing language at Google, 2nd fastest in TIOBE

#125

Post by zeveb »

devsquid wrote: post #97
pjmlp wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me the project died when Google decided it wasn't worth it to support it any longer in Chrome and Angular team decided to use TypeScript instead. Regarding Flutter, I watched the conference where it was presented and none of the devices I own was able to launch the application. https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=io.flutter.gal... Unless Google does actually use the language to the point a few well know…

I feel your sentiment. But I always thought getting browsers to adopt Dart was a crazy and impossible idea. I was actually glad when I heard they had abandoned that plan. Flutter confuses me. Its annoying you have to use their DSL for layouts rather than HTML and what about native widgets, like WebViews or VideoPlayers? With them drastically speeding up the Dart2JS compiler and implementing a strong typed mode, I am…

> But I always thought getting browsers to adopt Dart was a crazy and impossible idea.

I don't know — browsers are already planning to adopt a non-JavaScript language (WebAssembly); it's entirely possible that maybe, just maybe they might start to support more than just the late-90s mistake which is JavaScript.

Re: Dart in 2016: Fastest growing language at Google, 2nd fastest in TIOBE

#126

Post by stonemetal »

ceronman wrote: post #21

You don't always have to jump to the hype train! Yes, you don't hear much about Dart here on HN, but the project is far from dead. The most important thing is that Dart works, it's stable and production ready and it's being used in production not only by Google but also by other companies. Dart is a very refreshing change for front-end development. No fatigue! Great tooling, nice language without surprises and option…

TIOBE goes to Alexa goes down the list and gets the top 25 sites that have a search box on the front page, and will tell you how many results come back from a search(this means odd choices like ebay are in the mix). 15 of the 25 are Google owned ie google.com, google.fr, youtube.com. They then search for "X programming" and use the reported number of results.

Therefore it would be very easy for someone at google to manipulate the index. I am not sure why they would bother since the index means nothing. There are much easier ways for Google to make Dart a thing if they wanted it to be a thing.

Re: Dart in 2016: Fastest growing language at Google, 2nd fastest in TIOBE

#127

Post by whyrt12 »

attractivechaos wrote: post #79
statsmatscats wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Julia is a general purpose language

Julia focuses too much on numerical programming, which makes it great for matlab users, but awkward for other purposes.

In what way?

Re: Dart in 2016: Fastest growing language at Google, 2nd fastest in TIOBE

#128

Post by stonemetal »

usernam wrote: post #113

Year after year, I've never found the TIOBE index to reflect what I personally experienced in reality. By far . But I'm not in the US. Can somebody comment about their perception on this index?

Mostly meaningless garbage. The top of the list kind of follows my general awareness of language popularity, but it goes off the rails pretty quickly. Python above VB and JasvaScript seems off in particular. Below that it just gets wacky, Dart above Objective-C for instance.

Re: Dart in 2016: Fastest growing language at Google, 2nd fastest in TIOBE

#129

Post by garaetjjte »

munificent wrote: post #123
garaetjjte wrote: post #115

Don't use Dart for web applications. It is horrible. Hard to integrate with js libraries, lacking features from js, big fat runtime and buggy. It may be good language as replacement for server side javascript, but definitely not for web apps using dart2js.

> lacking features from js What features do you find lacking?

Not language features, but it lacks some HTML DOM objects. Eg. thead, tfoot constructors, style.setProperty don't work for css variables, etc. Small things, but extremely irritating because it defeats whole purpose of having sane wrapper around DOM API when it needs to be workarounded sometimes anyway.

I recently tried to access window content opened by window.open and it was absolute nightmare. It cannot be done purely from Dart and requires JS interop, but what's worse passing browser objects between dart and js is buggy. I haven't found a solution that works both on dart2js and dartium, when it works on dartium it is broken on dart2js and vice versa. And debugging dart2js-generated code is almost impossible, just obfuscated mess.

Re: Dart in 2016: Fastest growing language at Google, 2nd fastest in TIOBE

#130

Post by pjmlp »

zeveb wrote: post #125
devsquid wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel your sentiment. But I always thought getting browsers to adopt Dart was a crazy and impossible idea. I was actually glad when I heard they had abandoned that plan. Flutter confuses me. Its annoying you have to use their DSL for layouts rather than HTML and what about native widgets, like WebViews or VideoPlayers? With them drastically speeding up the Dart2JS compiler and implementing a strong typed mode, I am…

> But I always thought getting browsers to adopt Dart was a crazy and impossible idea. I don't know — browsers are already planning to adopt a non-JavaScript language (WebAssembly); it's entirely possible that maybe, just maybe they might start to support more than just the late-90s mistake which is JavaScript.

As someone that enjoys more developing native apps than web ones, I imagine Web Assembly will eventually be the revenge of plugins.

How long it will take for Canvas/WebGL + WebAssembly frameworks to appear?

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