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Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

nytimes.com

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Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#121

Post by weaksauce »

briandear wrote: post #88
dfraser992 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am reminded of an article I read years ago (sorry, no reference) about a low income family in Chicago (I think) during the Reagan era. The family had saved up a bit of money to send their kid to college, but some bureaucratic org found out. It was responsible for handling their benefits and because the total amount of assets the family had was over an acceptable limit, they cut out _all_ benefits to the family. Til…

Explain to me why my tax dollars should pay for other people again? I am not sure I understand why my labor must pay for others against my wishes. If I want to donate to charity, I will. Taxes should be used to pay for shared resources (roads, police, military,) but paying other people's living expenses? No thanks. America has poor and unemployed, yet Democrats seem to have no problem with illegal immigration which r…

In addition to not having an unstable society with high crime:

1. Poor people on welfare wouldn't be dis-incentivized to work more.

2. It reduces the cost of those programs like welfare that cost a lot in bureaucracy for no gain.

3. Lower income people have money velocity that stimulates the rest of the economy.

> Democrats seem to have no problem with illegal immigration which reduces the ability for those poor and unemployed to gets jobs

Illegal immigration doesn't do that... automation is a big factor in that. If your job is being taken away by an uneducated illegal immigrant then you are not competing for highly paid jobs.

> If I want to donate to charity, I will.

Charity has been shown to be less efficient than just giving money directly to poor people.

Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#122

Post by spilk »

briandear wrote: post #88
dfraser992 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am reminded of an article I read years ago (sorry, no reference) about a low income family in Chicago (I think) during the Reagan era. The family had saved up a bit of money to send their kid to college, but some bureaucratic org found out. It was responsible for handling their benefits and because the total amount of assets the family had was over an acceptable limit, they cut out _all_ benefits to the family. Til…

Explain to me why my tax dollars should pay for other people again? I am not sure I understand why my labor must pay for others against my wishes. If I want to donate to charity, I will. Taxes should be used to pay for shared resources (roads, police, military,) but paying other people's living expenses? No thanks. America has poor and unemployed, yet Democrats seem to have no problem with illegal immigration which r…

Do you hold any insurance policies, like on a home or a car? It's roughly the same thing. You pay into a system, and you may never have to use it, but you'll be glad it's there if you ever do need it.

Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#123

Post by conanbatt »

koolba wrote: post #91

What's stopping people from taking their universal income and moving to a different country with a lower cost of living. Do you you have to collect it in person? A UBI of $1-2K/month isn't that much in the western world but you could live like a king[1] in the third world. [1]: Okay maybe not a very rich king but but you'd definitely be doing more than fine.

Assuming that recipients are also taxed on their world income there is little difference between someone not working and living somewhere else or or not doing it without the country. It might be something unfair but i cant fathom it being significant at scale.

The problem is the people coming in: how do you stop high levels of immigration from people that would not be as productive as finnish people and hence would quickly become a drain on the state. The greatest single enemy of open immigration is welfare.

Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#125

Post by aninhumer »

Already__Taken wrote: post #52
zhemao wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's basically a negative income tax. That is, if you make below a certain amount, the government gives you money until your income reaches some base level.

Does that have any negatives that basic income doesn't? To me it sounds like a direct subset of that UBI aims to achieve. So a solid stepping stone towards it.

Basic Income and Negative Income Tax are an in fact equivalent, in that you can achieve identical income functions with either just by choosing the right tax bands.

However, their framing leads to different expectations. For example consider a flat income tax of 25% on income less $20k (going negative below that so unemployed people get $5k credit). Raising the negative rate to 50% sounds kind of progressive, since you're giving more to poorer people, but frame it as Basic Income, and yes you're increasing the baseline from $5k to $10k, but you're also implementing a 50% regressive tax band up to $20k earned income.

Another point is that they'll tend to be implemented differently due to framing. Basic Income is likely to be part of the welfare system, and since it's unconditional, you can just register once and receive it in perpetuity. Negative Income Tax is likely part of the tax system, so to get it you potentially need to submit a tax return saying "Earnings: $0" every year, which makes it more embarrassing.

Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#126

Post by lastyearman »

tgb wrote: post #93
exstudent2 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don't even have to be raising children or volunteering to benefit society. As long as they spend the money that's given to them, the market benefits.

This argument doesn't add up. Scenario 0) I do nothing, get nothing. Scenario 1) The government gives me $1000 and I buy $1000 dollars worth of goods and services, so now the economy is better by the net gain of $1000 worth of transactions - i.e. the mutual benefits of trade. Scenario 2) I have a job, do my job and my employer pays me $1000 dollars. Then I spend that on $1000 worth of goods and services. Now the econ…

Not entirely related to the original point, but I believe in the case of scenario 0 vs 1 market benefits by having more rational actors. That is, if you're not dirt poor, you're able to make better decisions and that makes markets work in a more optimal way.

Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#127

Post by taeric »

briandear wrote: post #82
ScottBurson wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not necessarily opposed to means-testing; for example, progressive income tax rates can be seen as a form of means-testing, and I think they're a good thing. What I care about is that the function from income earned to income (including subsidy) received be monotonic . Again, the income tax system (at least in the US) is carefully designed to have this property: when you make enough more money to move into a high…

That's still a disincentive: my effectively hourly rate decreases the more hours I work. Not sure how that's fair. A flat tax is the only fair tax. You make more, you pay more, but you aren't taking an effective pay cut per hour based on simply working more.

Most flat taxes do not land in the "you make more, you pay more" scheme. Instead, they are in the "you spend more, you pay more." Which, doesn't sound bad, necessarily.

However, there are two problems that I see. I suspect there are more.

First is that what you spend is only related to what you make. Specifically, it is relatively easy to find ways to not spend money if you have extra. What this means is that, at an absolute level of what you make, a flat tax actually gives a very easy way for high income people to have a lower tax rate. Turning it into "the more you make, the more you can proportionally keep." Which is sorta antithetical to the idea of the flat tax.

The second problem is essentially the cold start problem. Society is expensive to keep going. There is not much of a way around that. So, the rate will have to be relatively high to get the necessary funds. And this will hit those with low incomes harder than the ones with high.

I don't think either of these are necessarily road blocks to the idea. But, I do think it will necessarily get complicated.

Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#128

Post by jsmeaton »

briandear wrote: post #88
dfraser992 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am reminded of an article I read years ago (sorry, no reference) about a low income family in Chicago (I think) during the Reagan era. The family had saved up a bit of money to send their kid to college, but some bureaucratic org found out. It was responsible for handling their benefits and because the total amount of assets the family had was over an acceptable limit, they cut out _all_ benefits to the family. Til…

Explain to me why my tax dollars should pay for other people again? I am not sure I understand why my labor must pay for others against my wishes. If I want to donate to charity, I will. Taxes should be used to pay for shared resources (roads, police, military,) but paying other people's living expenses? No thanks. America has poor and unemployed, yet Democrats seem to have no problem with illegal immigration which r…

I'm not American, but do Dems really have no issue with illegal immigration? That seems like a slightly skewed perspective.

To answer your real point. You can never have full employment. There are always going to be people that can't have a job, whether that's due to health, lack of job availability, or a number of other issues. What do you do with these people? They have to eat or die.

The current system design is to provide a a safety net. The alternative is that people resort to crime to survive. Do you think that'd be a better country to live in? Do you have an alternative system?

Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#129

Post by darpa_escapee »

jsmeaton wrote: post #128
briandear wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Explain to me why my tax dollars should pay for other people again? I am not sure I understand why my labor must pay for others against my wishes. If I want to donate to charity, I will. Taxes should be used to pay for shared resources (roads, police, military,) but paying other people's living expenses? No thanks. America has poor and unemployed, yet Democrats seem to have no problem with illegal immigration which r…

I'm not American, but do Dems really have no issue with illegal immigration? That seems like a slightly skewed perspective. To answer your real point. You can never have full employment. There are always going to be people that can't have a job, whether that's due to health, lack of job availability, or a number of other issues. What do you do with these people? They have to eat or die. The current system design is t…

> do Dems really have no issue with illegal immigration

>How many people have been deported under Obama?

>President Barack Obama has often been referred to by immigration groups as the "Deporter in Chief."

>Between 2009 and 2015 his administration has removed more than 2.5 million people through immigration orders, which doesn’t include the number of people who "self-deported" or were turned away and/or returned to their home country at the border by U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP).

>How does he compare to other presidents?

>According to governmental data, the Obama administration has deported more people than any other president's administration in history.

>In fact, they have deported more than the sum of all the presidents of the 20th century.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/obamas-deportation-policy-num...

Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#130

Post by scott_karana »

pvdebbe wrote: post #53
wjossey wrote: post #4

tl;dr Finland is going to selecting 2,000 unemployed individuals, at random, and offering them cash without strings. Current unemployment schemes, they believe, hold back individuals from finding part time work / any work because the benefits outweigh the job opportunities. They hope that this new scheme promotes people to take work and have an adequate safety net to prevent homelessness and hunger.

I wonder why the participants couldn't be chosen from the whole working-age pool. Unless, the final system is not meant for working people at all, going against everything the universal welfare meant to solve. Doesn't surprise me one bit.

If it works well, I suspect they'll widen trials.
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