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It’s official: Venezuela is a dictatorship

washingtonpost.com

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Re: It’s official: Venezuela is a dictatorship

#121
post #61
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're being vague here, so I can't be sure what you're implying, but if you're suggesting that Pinochet was a positive thing for Chile, that's a nightmarish thing for anyone to sign their name to. What am I missing?

I've met some reasonable, leftist-leaning people who lived through the coup, and who told me that "Something had to be done" because the country was in a state of crisis. Of course, the crisis was manufactured, Pinochet committed crimes against humanity, etc. etc. Pinochet won a referendum in 1980 to stay in power. It may have been manipulated, but judging by the number of people I've met longing for the days of Pino…

That's what people said about Mussolini.

Re: It’s official: Venezuela is a dictatorship

#122
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The entire American foreign policy establishment of the 1980s.

By foreign policy establishment do you mean politicians? Because that's not what "intelligentsia" means.

No, I mean the foreign policy thinkers of the right wing. The Heritage Foundation, for instance, supported the Contras.

Re: It’s official: Venezuela is a dictatorship

#123
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again not clear on why I'm meant to care what the Ann Coulter of the left thinks about Venezuela. He has lots of nice things to say about Fidel Castro era Cuba as well.

One reason is that Bernie Sanders, who was not that far off from winning the presidency, takes him very seriously. From Michael Moore's website: "I first endorsed Bernie Sanders for public office in 1990 when he, as mayor of Burlington, VT, asked me to come up there and hold a rally for him in his run to become Vermont’s congressman."

I call 100% absolute total bullshit on the idea that Bernie Sanders takes any of his cues from Michael Moore, and I happily voted against Sanders in the Illinois primary because I thought he'd make a terrible President.

This is an extremely silly attempt to salvage a hopeless argument that Michael Moore is a meaningful data point.

Re: It’s official: Venezuela is a dictatorship

#124
post #75
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Turkish situation is tragic and complicated, but is there any doubt that Saudi Arabia is a dictatorship?

According to Hillary Clinton, Saudi Arabia is a kingdom.

All real kingdoms --- not the UK, for instance, which is not in fact governed by a regent --- are dictatorships. Saudi Arabia is, and is.

Re: It’s official: Venezuela is a dictatorship

#125
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's all just one poorly elected candidate away I guess. Look at what's happening in the Philippines with Duterte for a taste of why people are so concerned about Trump(regardless of whether the concern would end up founded or not).

It's why I'm concerned about Clinton.

You can't talk negatively about Clinton in Silicon Valley or on any sites run by such people. If you do here for instance you will get downvoted. I think that's a recent HN rule. You have to vote for Clinton or your not one of us.

You can't be for that clown ass or those independents whatever their names are... remember it's Clinton or gtfo!

You have be schooled in Silicon Valley democracy. Now go forth and follow the sheep in which the majority are all white men!

Re: It’s official: Venezuela is a dictatorship

#127
post #93

I wonder which has the higher correlation to instability: 1 formOfGovernmentX - ie democracy, socialism, dictatorship, etc 2 On america's shit list ?

Cuba and North Korea both seem to have more than their fair share of stability, despite topping the American shit list for decades.

Cuba: Have a look into the economic sanctions cuba was under for the last ~60 years. Without substantial help from other nations, notably Venezuela, I don't doubt the government would've fallen long ago.

N.Korea: Nations that have had "second-in-command" officials "eaten alive by... hungry dogs" for "attempting to overthrow the state" in the last 3 years won't be listed on my top ten stable countries.

Re: It’s official: Venezuela is a dictatorship

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However right-wing authoritarian dictatorships aren't usually ideologically driven, don't pretend that what they're doing is just "for the good of the people". I'm curious. Do you have a specimen in mind? [p.s.] > right-wing authoritarian dictatorships aren't usually ideologically driven And I question this as well. The ideological basis of right-wing is precisely that the natural order of things is a rigid & hiera…

Check out South Korea and Taiwan. The power went fairly smoothly from a military dictatorship to a democratically elected government. Sure the parallel isn't perfect - Taiwan and South Korea were on a war footing against communist rump states. However, the generals never claimed any particular moral high ground or rights.

That last bit isn't true at all for South Korea. Park Chung-hee, the general who ruled for nearly 20 years, was president under 3 constitutions, each further consolidating his power, importantly with the appearance of a democratic mandate. Despite the appearance of a democracy and the Reagan-like legacy he holds, Park was definitely a dictator: under the Yusin constitution, the president (only Park was eligible to run for president per carefully designed requirements) appointed the parliament, could suspend any freedom, and even legislate without his parliament's rubber stamp in emergencies.

Most enterprise was limited to Park's inner circle (which became the chaebol), allowing him to have a planned economy that finally surpassed North Korea's. Labor rights were nonexistent, journalists and other writers frequently became political prisoners, and travel outside the country was not allowed. The only thing that can be convincingly said to be better (holding Western liberal democracy as best) than in North Korea is the GDP, whether that meant much to the average citizen is up for debate since North Korea remains opaque. And it surely would have carried on if not for Park's assassination, which left no obvious successor. The new constitution (remember, Yusin made sure that only Park Chung-hee could be president) had a term limit on the new president, Chun Doo-hwan, to appease democratization activists who had been incensed by the Gwangju (5/18) massacre, the murder of hundreds or thousands of people for the crime of living in a restive province. When Chun's term ended, violent protests, this time in Seoul, forced his successor to make the 6/29 Declaration, a complete capitulation to the democratization activists.

That was long...point is, South Korea's military dictators did claim a democratic mandate, justifying oppression as the only way to economic prosperity (sound familiar?). After Park Chung-hee, they sought to appease democratization activists. Despite that effort, the transition was quite messy, not "fairly smooth": between 200 and 2000 protestors were killed in one week in 1980, and democracy was finally won through violent protests in the streets of Seoul in 1987.

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