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Switzerland is the world’s most competitive economy

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Re: Switzerland is the world’s most competitive economy

#121

Post by secure »

ohthehugemanate wrote: post #111
HSO wrote: post #2

It better be, given the cost of living and the salaries here… :-) On a more serious note, although I have no idea how this report was produced, one might note that it was produced by the WEF (a business-friendly Swiss organisation) and that it may well be part of the ongoing political debate in Switzerland on how to implement the referendum result on restricting immigration. I'm not saying it's right, wrong, objectiv…

The cost of living should be considered along with their income tax rate. It varies from canton (province) to canton, but hovers around 10%. That's a great deal compared to most any other European country. In neighboring Germany for instance, if you earn €55k, your tax rate is about 44% (including solidarity surcharge). In Zurich it's about 11% (canton plus federal tax). The top rates are 47% and 16%, respectively. S…

I’m not sure which part I’m missing here, but I’m living in Zürich and I pay about 40% taxes, not merely 11%…?

Re: Switzerland is the world’s most competitive economy

#122

Post by zavandor »

ohthehugemanate wrote: post #111
HSO wrote: post #2

It better be, given the cost of living and the salaries here… :-) On a more serious note, although I have no idea how this report was produced, one might note that it was produced by the WEF (a business-friendly Swiss organisation) and that it may well be part of the ongoing political debate in Switzerland on how to implement the referendum result on restricting immigration. I'm not saying it's right, wrong, objectiv…

The cost of living should be considered along with their income tax rate. It varies from canton (province) to canton, but hovers around 10%. That's a great deal compared to most any other European country. In neighboring Germany for instance, if you earn €55k, your tax rate is about 44% (including solidarity surcharge). In Zurich it's about 11% (canton plus federal tax). The top rates are 47% and 16%, respectively. S…

11% in Zurich? Only at the lowest wages, like a cashier. The tax progression is steep and the rates quickly become comparable to other european countries. In Zurich marginal tax rate levels at about 40% pretty quickly for higher than average earner.

Re: Switzerland is the world’s most competitive economy

#123

Post by dismantlethesun »

gragas wrote: post #113
heydenberk wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was making this point a few weeks ago and after looking into it more, I still think it's a valuable point to raise, but the truth is more nuanced than I expected. States in the US vary in nominal GSP per capita by only 2x — from Mississippi at $35K to Delaware at $70K. In the EU, it ranges from Bulgaria at €6K to Ireland at €55K. (This excludes DC and Luxembourg, which are outliers in many ways.) In fact, even Miss…

>Mississippi's GDP per capita being similar to that of France, Italy or Spain is really hard to reconcile with the fact that many of us would love to live in the latter countries and couldn't be paid to move to Mississippi. It seems to me that there are many people who say things like that about most of the less-populated states. To be honest, I'm glad. After moving to SF from a small Midwestern city, I've realized t…

> High rates of mental illness (not that mental illness is a bad thing, but I think it is at least somewhat telling about the environment)

I'd say that mental illness doesn't make one a bad person, (just like having pneumonia isn't a punishment for your sins), but mental illness is a bad thing---it should be avoided, mitigated where it exists, and if possible cured.

I'm guessing you might have meant something similar?

Re: Switzerland is the world’s most competitive economy

#124

Post by rfrey »

__jal wrote: post #103
jomamaxx wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Transfer pricing is not 'tax evasion' - it's 'tax avoidance'. To be clear, 'tax evasion' is illegal. Most companies do what they can to avoid paying taxes, which is rational in some ways, but they usually don't do anything illegal. It's important that we don't mix the two :)

Important to whom? I intentionally do not make a distinction. I'm not going to start, because the point is important to me. The distinction matters to: decision-makers at the firm in question, shareholders of the firm in question, the sovereign collecting the taxes[1]. And given the the dispute resolution with large corps' tax issues rarely involves people going to jail or even admissions of fault, I'm not sure why a…

Well, you have to draw a line somewhere between ethical tax minimization and unethical tax evasion. Where do you draw it?

This is a continuum that stretches from clearly illegal schemes through hazy waters, into calm water like deducting salaries and cost of goods sold from revenue and paying tax on the balance. For individuals "tax avoidance" includes deducting charity contributions and taking advantage of things like deductions for dependents. If that is not "unethical" to you then you need to make a distinction between tax avoidance and tax evasion.

Many people believe "is it legal" is a good line to use. You may differ on that, but you can't escape the dichotomy.

Re: Switzerland is the world’s most competitive economy

#125

Post by rfrey »

woah wrote: post #93
jomamaxx wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Transfer pricing is not 'tax evasion' - it's 'tax avoidance'. To be clear, 'tax evasion' is illegal. Most companies do what they can to avoid paying taxes, which is rational in some ways, but they usually don't do anything illegal. It's important that we don't mix the two :)

What's the difference? Does 'tax evasion' involve falsehoods?

Tax avoidance is legal - it's reducing your income through legal means.

Where it gets prickly is when companies game the system and find ways to reduce tax that the sovereign clearly would outlaw, but cannot for structural or political reasons. Still not illegal, but not exactly awesome either.

Re: Switzerland is the world’s most competitive economy

#126

Post by ucaetano »

jsnell wrote: post #83
ucaetano wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not at all. Proximity to those universities helps create a high-tech cluster, just as Ames, Stanford and Berkeley created the SF Bay Area's high-tech cluster.

I'm not sure there is any kind of exceptional software engineering cluster in Zurich compared to other major European cities. But even if there were, it wouldn't matter to Google. There are no major network effects or cross-pollination with the ecosystem. Practically everyone who goes to work at that office is relocating from elsewhere. And if people leave, it's rarely to work at some other company in Zurich, but usu…

That's a good point, maybe the cluster is more around physics and chemistry, and not computer science. Thanks for sharing!

Re: Switzerland is the world’s most competitive economy

#127

Post by oh_sigh »

oblio wrote: post #69
oh_sigh wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, why not? It's not like these rankings are useful in any way anyway.

That's almost like saying: "since we can't have perfect comparisons, let's have no comparisons at all".

What value is derived from the comparisons?

Re: Switzerland is the world’s most competitive economy

#128

Post by victornomad »

jahnu wrote: post #3
HSO wrote: post #2

It better be, given the cost of living and the salaries here… :-) On a more serious note, although I have no idea how this report was produced, one might note that it was produced by the WEF (a business-friendly Swiss organisation) and that it may well be part of the ongoing political debate in Switzerland on how to implement the referendum result on restricting immigration. I'm not saying it's right, wrong, objectiv…

Is the cost of living proportional to competitiveness? Anyway, it seems like a mystery to me why tech firms like Google set up shop in small expensive Zurich instead of say cheaper, bigger Barcelona or Vienna, for example. I'd love to know what the incentives are for them.

They give tax benefits to companies under certain conditions, similar to what happens in Dublin. It doesnt have to do anything with the ETH or EPFL. As far as I know most of the people working at G Zurich are not swiss.

Regarding your first question... Its not the same to work in the field and sell tomatoes to sell ponzi tiered insurances or do business holding the money of the biggest "rich families" from europe.

Re: Switzerland is the world’s most competitive economy

#129

Post by faebi »

erispoe wrote: post #66
ucaetano wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taxes and payroll taxes are much lower in Switzerland than in France, for example, so an employee might cost the same to the company in both countries, but have much more net income in Switzerland. Most people don't see payroll taxes, only income taxes. Having a large percentage of foreigners and English-speakers also contributes to that, as well as the clustering effect (IBM Research has a lab in Zurich since 1956).

The median income in Switzerland is PPP$35,083 and PPP$24,233 in France. The main difference is in healthcare, which in Switzerland is entirely private, post-payroll, and can easily amount to $500/month, whereas in France it's part public (payroll) part private. And the private part is usually paid on payroll too. Health insurance is mandatory in Switzerland, so it really is not disposable income, even if you have pr…

Thats quite a high number, I pay arround 130$ a month and I case I would get really sick and it would max at arround 220$ a month plus 500$ annual self-coverage. Also poor people get cheaper or free rates. Also important its not possible not to have an inssurance in switzerland, its mondatory.

Re: Switzerland is the world’s most competitive economy

#130

Post by tw04 »

heydenberk wrote: post #57
noobermin wrote: post #5

I always feel like it is unfair how we place different European nations in same category as the US in these rankings or whatever, and for the US, we average over all the states in the US. As homogenous the US is, different states have different economies, different laws, in some cases, some slight but important cultural differences. Is it really fair to say have the US compete on terms of "competitiveness" or in othe…

I was making this point a few weeks ago and after looking into it more, I still think it's a valuable point to raise, but the truth is more nuanced than I expected. States in the US vary in nominal GSP per capita by only 2x — from Mississippi at $35K to Delaware at $70K. In the EU, it ranges from Bulgaria at €6K to Ireland at €55K. (This excludes DC and Luxembourg, which are outliers in many ways.) In fact, even Miss…

I'm not sure it's really fair to compare Western Europe and former USSR countries in the same breath as the US.

You might as well compare California to Mexico because they share a physical border. You'll find similar disparities in income.

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