YC set to launch one-year minimum income pilot project to figure out logistics • Hacker News Board

Re: YC set to launch one-year minimum income pilot project to figure out logistics

#121

Post by simbalion » Sat, Jun 25, 2016, 7:08 PM UTC

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #89

gjkood wrote: post #17

Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Along with the daily fish, does it makes sense to provide some sort of vocational training that an otherwise healthy person can take advantage of? If a person was not able to take advantage of early education for whatever reason, but is currently physically healthy, there is still opportunity to provide for himself and…

> Along with the daily fish, does it makes sense to provide some sort of vocational training that an otherwise healthy person can take advantage of? The two things have little to do with each other. A universal basic income has two primary purposes. The first is that it can act as the safety net for people with no other options, without the administrative overhead and errors inherent in means testing or the disincent…

In America there is no such thing as "no other options".

When you see folks saying these people are lazy, they are folks who understand there are always "other options". They might not be the options you want, but then you want free money so who cares what you want.

Re: YC set to launch one-year minimum income pilot project to figure out logistics

#122

Post by simbalion » Sat, Jun 25, 2016, 7:10 PM UTC

I'd bet money that most of the people will spend their free dollars on drugs and alcohol.

Re: YC set to launch one-year minimum income pilot project to figure out logistics

#123

Post by RobertoG » Sat, Jun 25, 2016, 7:12 PM UTC

Gargoyle wrote: post #119

gjkood wrote: post #17

Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Along with the daily fish, does it makes sense to provide some sort of vocational training that an otherwise healthy person can take advantage of? If a person was not able to take advantage of early education for whatever reason, but is currently physically healthy, there is still opportunity to provide for himself and…

Give him enough fish so that food isn't a concern and see what else he does with his time. That's the point of this project.

"..and see what else he does with his time."

As it's his/her right.

I suspect that an important subset of the people that worry about what the unwashed masses are going to do with so many free time, is also a subset of the people that complain about paternalistic states. Kind of ironic.

Re: YC set to launch one-year minimum income pilot project to figure out logistics

#124

Post by skybrian » Sat, Jun 25, 2016, 7:17 PM UTC

simbalion wrote: post #122

I'd bet money that most of the people will spend their free dollars on drugs and alcohol.

I'd take your bet. There are studies showing otherwise.

"This study documented large, positive, and sustainable impacts across a wide range of outcomes including assets, earnings, food security, mental health, and domestic violence. It found no evidence of impacts on alcohol or tobacco use, crime, or inflation." [1]

But that was in Kenya so maybe it would be different somewhere else?

[1] https://www.givedirectly.org/research-at-give-directly

Re: YC set to launch one-year minimum income pilot project to figure out logistics

#125

Post by JoeAltmaier » Sat, Jun 25, 2016, 7:21 PM UTC

I'm confused. Isn't this already being done various places around the world already? (e.g. Alaska, Puerto Rico) Why not study people in those places? Better yet, nearly everybody in those places is getting the benefit, so the experiment isn't poisoned by the culture (you're the only one in your neighborhood getting a benefit - others treat you differently)

Re: YC set to launch one-year minimum income pilot project to figure out logistics

#126

Post by RobertoG » Sat, Jun 25, 2016, 7:23 PM UTC

awt wrote: post #46

Why not just have a YC charity?

With this question, and in all this thread actually, basic income is put in the framework of "what could we do with all those people"?

I think that we should be open to another kind of narratives about this issue.

For instance, we could change the name from "basic income" to "automation dividend".

In this way we could think of it as a right to a share, in the hard work of all the past generations, that created the immense pool of infrastructure and knowledge that we enjoy nowadays.

Also, we shouldn't forget that, in a few years, all 'those people' could be us.

Re: YC set to launch one-year minimum income pilot project to figure out logistics

#127

Post by yummyfajitas » Sat, Jun 25, 2016, 7:26 PM UTC

daveguy wrote: post #54

yummyfajitas wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lets interpret the claim charitably - people on welfare have reduced work effort, increased fertility, and increased drug consumption. Do you assert that any of those claims are false?

The assertion is that none of those are inherent qualities of a group. Reduced work effort is a chicken egg issue. Of course people on welfare are going to have reduced "work effort" -- joblessness is probably what made you have to get it in the first place. Same with drug consumption. I would question any "higher drug use" measure as selection bias -- investment bankers aren't generally being drug tested are they? T…

A further claim is that increasing welfare reduces work effort. Is this disputed?

I don't know why we are discussing drug tests for welfare, but simple arithmetic provides a very low bar for them to be cost effective. Google suggests a drug test costs $10-30. If welfare costs $15,000/year, then you only need to have a 0.2% positive rate for it to be worth it.

Do you think folks on welfare do drugs at a rate lower than 0.2%?

Re: YC set to launch one-year minimum income pilot project to figure out logistics

#128

Post by saulrh » Sat, Jun 25, 2016, 7:33 PM UTC

FreedomToCreate wrote: post #113

saulrh wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, that's a risk. However, I'm less afraid of the robots that get us there and far more afraid of the applied psychology (propaganda/advertising/politics) that could trap the entire species in that state. The Culture demonstrates a future with similar robotic capabilities where the exact opposite happens, with people gaining nearly ultimate self-actualization, the difference being in the application of intelligenc…

Explain how people will gain "ultimate self-actualization"?

I guess you haven't read the Culture novels? They explain it better than I could.

The short form is that they've solved Friendliness and handed most of the management over to hyperintelligent, near-omnipotent benevolent AIs. The only real problems left for individuals qualify as "how to not get bored", which for the most part they approach by cultivating eye-watering arrays of esoteric and satisfying hobbies, projects, arts and crafts, high-brow debates, luxurious indulgences, social groups, and games. The few people that still aren't satisfied generally end up in their diplomatic corps slash military slash spy agency slash police force. "Ultimate" may have been an exaggeration, but it is by far the most satisfying utopia I've seen described.

Re: YC set to launch one-year minimum income pilot project to figure out logistics

#129

Post by simbalion » Sat, Jun 25, 2016, 7:34 PM UTC

skybrian wrote: post #124

simbalion wrote: post #122

I'd bet money that most of the people will spend their free dollars on drugs and alcohol.

I'd take your bet. There are studies showing otherwise. "This study documented large, positive, and sustainable impacts across a wide range of outcomes including assets, earnings, food security, mental health, and domestic violence. It found no evidence of impacts on alcohol or tobacco use, crime, or inflation." [1] But that was in Kenya so maybe it would be different somewhere else? [1] https://www.givedirectly.org/…

I concede, under different economic conditions a program like this might be very successful, but in America it will attract lazy people like flies to shit.

Re: YC set to launch one-year minimum income pilot project to figure out logistics

#130

Post by edanm » Sat, Jun 25, 2016, 7:43 PM UTC

simbalion wrote: post #102

They'll do nothing and buy drugs and alcohol. People have been doing that with free money since forever. You can't package the free money in a different way and expect different results.

Do you have any research to back that statement up?