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Are women exiting engineering because men get the challenging assignments?

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Re: Are women exiting engineering because men get the challenging assignments?

#121

Post by dpark »

fatdog wrote: post #100

Before reaching for explanations to reinforce hackneyed oppression tropes, there might be a more economic reason women leave engineering and STEM fields in general. Engineering is about developing skills, and all technical skills have a relatively early inflection point of diminishing marginal returns on effort. Engineering has a high barrier to entry, and women who are in engineering are necessarily in the 80th perc…

I've seen this argument before and it makes no sense. You're basically arguing that smart women recognize that engineering is a bad deal. Why do smart men not recognize the same?

You mention kids, but that's basically a concern in any field in the US, because FMLA requirements are a joke. Plus many men in engineering (where parental leave is often much longer than FMLA requirements) take long paternity leave, and many women choose not to have children anyway.

So what exactly is it about engineering that makes it the smart move for women to leave the field but not men? Or what is it about women that makes them recognize that it's the smart move when men don't see it?

I'm not saying that your assertion is strictly wrong, but I am saying it's not interesting. If women are leaving engineering because of entrenched sexism, that might well be the "smart move" for them. But this isn't a useful insight because the underlying problem remains the entrenched sexism.

Re: Are women exiting engineering because men get the challenging assignments?

#122

Post by ape4 »

Redoubts wrote: post #5

> Twenty percent of engineering graduates are women—but only 13 percent of the engineering workforce is female. >It’s not a pipeline issue Aren't women half the population? That still sounds like a pipeline issue.

On the issue of pipeline. The newer people are going to get the more boring tasks.

Re: Are women exiting engineering because men get the challenging assignments?

#123

Post by carlmcqueen »

Diamons wrote: post #106
carlmcqueen wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see a big issue is that you were encouraging STEM activity at the high school level, there was likely a multitude of years where those same girls were pushed in other directions. I believe it has to start earlier and not as a forced thing but as an acceptable and encouraged and praised choice.

That goes against the intent of the parents though. If a parent wants a child to go into some other non-STEM field, I don't see how anyone has the right to go against that by brainwashing kids into doing something else.

I agree and did not intend to say that there should be any force.

Around 2005-2006 when I hadn't changed majors to computer science yet and was student teaching middle school, there were still things being said to girls like 'its just more natural for boys' from older teachers.

It just didn't let them build the resilience up to work through the 'hard' aspects of math.

Re: Are women exiting engineering because men get the challenging assignments?

#124

Post by harryh »

benbenolson wrote: post #68
socrates1998 wrote: post #47

I think whenever you are a "minority" in anything you run the risk of being felt left out. If your group comprises only 20% of something, then it is always going to be an issue. The problem with the gender gap is that it will never go away. Prejudice against a race, ethic group, or religion is a mistake. People are generally people and we have more in common than we don't. And as time goes on, I think you will see th…

Finally! Someone had to say it. These sorts of situations (low percentage of women engineers) are not issues; they're just facts, and most likely caused by, generally enough, the way that women and men think/act/desire. It's not a problem, it's just a fact of life that people, oddly enough, are having a hard time accepting.

People have said exactly what you are saying about every single underrepresented minority in almost any field of human endeavor. Almost every single time history has proven them wrong.

Maybe people are right on this one. But I doubt it.

Re: Are women exiting engineering because men get the challenging assignments?

#125

Post by cbanek »

zzalpha wrote: post #119
cbanek wrote: post #85

I'm not sure this is actually a gender problem. I'm a woman, who has worked in big tech. Having done 12+ years, I've seen that you need to work on the right projects to get noticed and promoted. On the other side, usually when a manager wants to get rid of someone, they just give them the crap work. It doesn't matter if they are a man or woman. It's part of the process of showing "we don't like you, so start looking…

I'm a woman, who has worked in big tech. Having done 12+ years, I've seen that you need to work on the right projects to get noticed and promoted. Have you found you've needed to work harder to get noticed and promoted as compared to your male counterparts? As a man, I've certainly observed that among my female co-workers, but that's as an outsider looking in.

For sure. Although I think again, it's mostly about people in the big companies fighting over each other for what management has allocated for raises and promotions. I've seen men duke it out as well.

Overall I would agree it's a higher up-hill climb for women, but I think getting the crap work means you're generally a less valued employee (most likely some strong correlation there between being a woman, but not causation IMHO).

Re: Are women exiting engineering because men get the challenging assignments?

#126

Post by harryh »

kogepathic wrote: post #32

My company has desperately tried to hire female candidates into our engineering team, which is currently all male. From the dozens of applications that we got for the position, only about 5% were female. After interviewing them, they either declined the position, or weren't able to complete our take home challenge (nothing against these women, we have lots of guys fail it too!) So, yeah, I'd love to have some females…

> So, yeah, I'd love to have some females on our engineering team

You could start by not talking about women like this. It makes you sound like a Ferengi.

Re: Are women exiting engineering because men get the challenging assignments?

#127

Post by socrates1998 »

carlmcqueen wrote: post #103
socrates1998 wrote: post #47

I think whenever you are a "minority" in anything you run the risk of being felt left out. If your group comprises only 20% of something, then it is always going to be an issue. The problem with the gender gap is that it will never go away. Prejudice against a race, ethic group, or religion is a mistake. People are generally people and we have more in common than we don't. And as time goes on, I think you will see th…

I see a big issue is that you were encouraging STEM activity at the high school level, there was likely a multitude of years where those same girls were pushed in other directions. I believe it has to start earlier and not as a forced thing but as an acceptable and encouraged and praised choice.

I thought about that after I wrote my comment. I only had them for one year in high school, so it's possible that they were subjected to years of other conditioning.

But, really, I have seen the exact opposite. Girls are actively encouraged to participate in math and science from a very early age in a lot of our schools.

I don't have any numbers on hand, but there seems to a drastic change in middle school where girls stop being interested in math and science. So by the time they get to high school, it seems like the fight for their interest is already over.

This is just my experience from being in education for several years.

Re: Are women exiting engineering because men get the challenging assignments?

#128

Post by jdp23 »

jarvic wrote: post #28
jdp23 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The comments on any HN thread about barriers to gender equity in software engineering illustrate the barriers to gender equity in software engineering.

Comments that take legitimate concerns with the merits of a particular study and dismiss them as misogyny don't add anything to the discussion either.

Thanks for illustrating my point so nicely :)

For one thing, rather than engaging with what I actually said, you inaccurately framed it as an accusation of misogyny.

What other ways do you see your comment as a good example of what I was saying?

How do you see the other comments in the thread as examples?

Re: Are women exiting engineering because men get the challenging assignments?

#129

Post by jdp23 »

gravypod wrote: post #65
jdp23 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The comments on any HN thread about barriers to gender equity in software engineering illustrate the barriers to gender equity in software engineering.

Refute their claims, don't label them.

Another fine example!

In what ways do you see your comment as a good example of what I was saying?

How do you see the other comments in the thread as examples?

Re: Are women exiting engineering because men get the challenging assignments?

#130

Post by socrates1998 »

harryh wrote: post #124
benbenolson wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Finally! Someone had to say it. These sorts of situations (low percentage of women engineers) are not issues; they're just facts, and most likely caused by, generally enough, the way that women and men think/act/desire. It's not a problem, it's just a fact of life that people, oddly enough, are having a hard time accepting.

People have said exactly what you are saying about every single underrepresented minority in almost any field of human endeavor. Almost every single time history has proven them wrong. Maybe people are right on this one. But I doubt it.

Yeah, that's true, but my point was that gender differences are much more real on an individual level than differences between races.

Racial differences are extraordinarily superficial and hard to define. Gender differences by comparison are massive and very real.

Again, there is a very real debate on how much is culture and how much is biological.

But, it's not ALL culture. The fact is girls and boys are different and will continue to be different.

We don't know if their interest level in math/science is biology or culture.

If I had to guess, it would be both. I think we can do more to get more female engineers for sure, but forcing people to do something they don't want to do is just as wrong.

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