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Are women exiting engineering because men get the challenging assignments?

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111–120 of 157 posts

Re: Are women exiting engineering because men get the challenging assignments?

#111

I think using the word 'fun' in this title is demeaning and misleading. Women aren't looking for fun, they're looking for meaningful, interesting work and are being denied it. (Obviously not all women, etc. etc.) I know a very talented woman with more experience and talent than her teammates who constantly deals with the interesting work being given to men instead of her. In meetings men look to the other men for opi…

> Partly it's because corporate environments prefer bluster to quieter expertise but the answer shouldn't be to tell women to be bigger blowhards than the men in order to get to do interesting stuff. This often seems like a better dimension on which to analyze these "gender in the workplace" issues. That is, these issues arise more often due to the typical characteristics and behaviors that members of each gender dis…

a personality isn't some spontaneously emerging, fixed thing. it's affected by its environment. certain qualities are encouraged, and others discouraged.

perhaps women are less likely to be blowhards due to something essential about being a woman. on the other hand it may be that the qualities encouraged and discouraged in women are the components in being a blowhard. and that assumes women are less likely to be blowhards, and that blowhards are more likely to succeed, which isn't necessarily clear. maybe gender disparities exist simply because women are treated differently than men, and reframing the cause to "typical characteristics and behaviors that members of each gender display and engage in" is just shuffling around gender essentialism.

Re: Are women exiting engineering because men get the challenging assignments?

#112
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then, after spending 4+ years in college studying surface friction losses or CRDT applications without tombstones, and n+ years in industry trying to debug someone else's too-clever binary-flag-in-ruby code, a large number of them ... realize they really don't enjoy this work So... on average you believe men just like engineering more than women? Because of... what... genetics or something?

Seems to me that genetics is a perfectly acceptable answer.

It was a perfectly acceptable answer to justify segregation, too... using "genetics" as a basis for justifying social bias is a very dangerous road to go down unless you're certain you're on extremely firm ground.

Re: Are women exiting engineering because men get the challenging assignments?

#113
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lawyers and Doctors seem to be faring better than Programmers. "Because they wanted/didn't want to do it" isn't where the trail of inquiry ends, btw.

Lawyers? Male dominated field, especially higher paying/partner fields. [0] Doctors? Depends on the field. Pediatrics, gynecology, and a few other fields are female-dominated while surgeons (especially neurosurgeons), orthopedics, and a few other fields are male-dominated. [1] With roughly 20/80 F/M ratios those fields fair about as poorly as the programming field. [0] http://www.americanbar.org/content/dam/aba/uncat…

> Lawyers? Male dominated field, especially higher paying/partner fields. [0]

That's a relative term. The legal profession is about 50-50 in school and at the associate (1-10 years experience) level. While the partner ranks are still heavily male, about a third of new partners are women.[1] As are a third of federal appellate judges. 20% of Fortune 500 General Counsel/CLOs are women.

There is a lot of (justified) hand-wringing in the legal profession about how much work is left to do. But at every stage, the representation of women is much higher than in engineering.

[1] http://dfalliance.com/research/new-partner-report/

Re: Are women exiting engineering because men get the challenging assignments?

#114

I think whenever you are a "minority" in anything you run the risk of being felt left out. If your group comprises only 20% of something, then it is always going to be an issue. The problem with the gender gap is that it will never go away. Prejudice against a race, ethic group, or religion is a mistake. People are generally people and we have more in common than we don't. And as time goes on, I think you will see th…

[deleted]

Re: Are women exiting engineering because men get the challenging assignments?

#115
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but when you have a culture that punishes women for not being quiet by labeling them as aggressive, b*tchy, etc (after all, a certain presidential candidate often demeans his female opponent for "yelling" and so forth, despite that behaviour being perfectly acceptable in a man), you have now sown the seeds for gender bias.

That candidate (and especially his vocal supporters) attack beta males with as much vitriol as women. No intention of conflating "beta" with introvert. They aren't the same but I'm sure you get my point.

The difference is your "beta" male wouldn't be punished for changing tone.

Re: Are women exiting engineering because men get the challenging assignments?

#116
post #57
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're maybe non familiar with qualitative research methods? A study like this can be used to discover the kinds of challenges that women face in engineering work environments. It would be a mistake to try to make quantitative claims about these results, but no one is doing that here.

I agree with the first part of your comment, but the authors are making specific suggestions about changes to college programs.

Yes, specific suggestion about qualitative changes to college curricula, based on qualitative results of a study. That seems reasonable to me. Once these changes are enacted, of course, they can be subject to quantitative study.

Re: Are women exiting engineering because men get the challenging assignments?

#117
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then, after spending 4+ years in college studying surface friction losses or CRDT applications without tombstones, and n+ years in industry trying to debug someone else's too-clever binary-flag-in-ruby code, a large number of them ... realize they really don't enjoy this work So... on average you believe men just like engineering more than women? Because of... what... genetics or something?

Seems to me that genetics is a perfectly acceptable answer.

If there was any evidence supporting that answer, sure.

Re: Are women exiting engineering because men get the challenging assignments?

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not necessarily. It could be the experience of the 20% that leads to a whittling to 13% influences women to never enter the pipeline in the first place, which means the root problem isn't the pipeline but what lies at the end of it.

The problem is it's self-reinforcing. When you have a gender imbalance of something like 10:1, everything bad that happens in the 1:1 case now happens ten times as often even if all the men behave exactly the same. A bad experience that would have occurred to 3.5% of women then occurs to 35%, assuming exactly identical behavior. And worse than that if the bad actors become more aggressive for lack of prospects. Which…

In your first paragraph you're essentially describing the Matthew Effect. It's one of the strongest arguments against laissez-faire libertarian approaches to unfair/unnatural inequalities.

Your approach is a more aggressive form of affirmative action.

Re: Are women exiting engineering because men get the challenging assignments?

#119
post #85

I'm not sure this is actually a gender problem. I'm a woman, who has worked in big tech. Having done 12+ years, I've seen that you need to work on the right projects to get noticed and promoted. On the other side, usually when a manager wants to get rid of someone, they just give them the crap work. It doesn't matter if they are a man or woman. It's part of the process of showing "we don't like you, so start looking…

I'm a woman, who has worked in big tech. Having done 12+ years, I've seen that you need to work on the right projects to get noticed and promoted.

Have you found you've needed to work harder to get noticed and promoted as compared to your male counterparts?

As a man, I've certainly observed that among my female co-workers, but that's as an outsider looking in.

Re: Are women exiting engineering because men get the challenging assignments?

#120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems to me that genetics is a perfectly acceptable answer.

It was a perfectly acceptable answer to justify segregation, too... using "genetics" as a basis for justifying social bias is a very dangerous road to go down unless you're certain you're on extremely firm ground.

> It was a perfectly acceptable answer to justify segregation

Actually, no. It was not an acceptable answer to justify segregation.

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