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What Urbit is

urbit.org

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Re: What Urbit is

#121
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its the whole of collections of views he is public about. We talk a great deal of "Good Fit" and the like when working on projects with others, or working for someone. This is a case where he would work better with his own kind: racists, sexists, and bigots. Like attracts like.

You mean aside from the project under discussion? Why are his personal views even relevant here?

Because there are a great fewer purely technical decisions in the world of software than some people around here seem to believe, and people's beliefs, worldviews, experiences and identities matter. They matter a lot. And to the extent that software is, as they say, "eating the world," the kinds of people who are writing software and the kinds of people that aren't has a profound impact on our society.

If you look at Bitcoin and the blockchain as a purely technical achievement, it's marvelous and incredible, a testament to human ingenuity. The problem is that money is not a purely technical problem, and people involved in Bitcoin who ignore that open themselves to a whole lot of relearning, like when people who are given the ability to steal a whole lot of money end up stealing a whole lot of money, like at ShapeShift[1]. Banks have been dealing with these kinds of problems for decades (or, depending on how you look at it, hundreds if not thousands of years). But if you only concern yourself with the technical aspects of Bitcoin, not the social or political aspects, you can miss things that seem obvious with the benefit of hindsight.

And the software that people creates has implications that range far beyond technical questions. A great example of how we can encode assumptions that come from our beliefs, our experiences, who we are and where we happened to be born into software without even realizing that we've done so is the fantastic essay "Falsehoods Programmers Believe About Names[2]." Reading that should be a real eye-opener about how, without intending to, programmers can end up writing software that is built for people Like Them and is unaccomodating to people who Aren't Like Them.

Most of the talk about his personal views here are about his views on race. It shouldn't be a huge surprise to anyone that the sort of people who are at Hacker News are likely more white than the rest of America, much less the world. As are a lot of the people writing software in use today. Sometimes that means that Google Photos categorizes someone's pictures of himself and his girlfriend as "gorillas"[3], which is the sort of error one imagines Google would be a lot less likely to make if they had more African-Americans working on their code and testing their software before release. Or machine learning algorithms that courts use to predict recidivism rates in determining sentencing have much higher false positive rates for African-Americans than whites.[4]

And making this place more welcoming to Curtis Yarvin by focusing discussion on the technical merits of Urbit and ignoring his personal views is a signal to a lot of other people about what we as a community value and what we don't. And I think it's a bad signal, because it alienates people with valuable and important viewpoints that we ought to be finding ways to be more open to, not less.

1) https://news.bitcoin.com/looting-fox-sabotage-shapeshift/

2) https://www.kalzumeus.com/2010/06/17/falsehoods-programmers-...

3) http://www.theverge.com/2015/7/1/8880363/google-apologizes-p...

4) https://www.propublica.org/article/machine-bias-risk-assessm...

Re: What Urbit is

#122
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, so your argument is that only Native Americans would feel unwelcome in this community? Is this supposed to be in his favor? EDIT: For clarity

> So your argument is that Native Americans should feel unwelcome in this community? You're putting words in 5F36B5F62640's mouth. And to be absolutely honest, anybody reading this can see that you're the one attempting to make people feel unwelcome in this community. Edit: The commenter has now upgraded his comment but the original with added emphasis is quoted above.

That was the example Moldbug used, claiming that Africans made genetically better slaves than Native Americans. 5F36B5F62640 contended that the groups that were not better slaves should feel unwelcome. This is just the basic logical implication of taking those two claims together.

Rather than attacking me personally, is there something I missed or was incorrect about?

Re: What Urbit is

#123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First off, in my opinion I don't really care what anyone thinks. I care about what they do and what they encourage other people to do (I can't find anything about moldbug treating anyone in any negative fashion nor encouraging others to do so). However, in the context of racist thoughts: 1. (Least bad, though still racist/bad) Believing that other ethnic groups are "better" or "superior" rather than "different". So i…

Under point 1, a belief that some ethnic groups are less intelligent than cattle, but believing that it is not a negative trait, would not be racist? I'd classify that as a racist belief, wouldn't you?

That would be a belief they are subhuman, which is inherently negative. So yes, that would be racist.

Re: What Urbit is

#124
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So your argument is that Native Americans should feel unwelcome in this community? You're putting words in 5F36B5F62640's mouth. And to be absolutely honest, anybody reading this can see that you're the one attempting to make people feel unwelcome in this community. Edit: The commenter has now upgraded his comment but the original with added emphasis is quoted above.

That was the example Moldbug used, claiming that Africans made genetically better slaves than Native Americans. 5F36B5F62640 contended that the groups that were not better slaves should feel unwelcome. This is just the basic logical implication of taking those two claims together. Rather than attacking me personally, is there something I missed or was incorrect about?

You created a 'should' from a 'would', and therefore implied that 5F36B5F62640 had ill-feelings towards Indians.

I'm not attacking you personally, nor am I speaking to you personally. I am just pointing out to anybody reading this, that you just tried to smear somebody.

Of course, whether you did so on purpose is another matter.

Re: What Urbit is

#125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Under point 1, a belief that some ethnic groups are less intelligent than cattle, but believing that it is not a negative trait, would not be racist? I'd classify that as a racist belief, wouldn't you?

That would be a belief they are subhuman, which is inherently negative. So yes, that would be racist.

Where would that subhuman line be? If they think an adult from one ethnic group is as intelligent as an infant in another, but that there's nothing wrong with that, is that believing they're subhuman and hence racist?

Re: What Urbit is

#126
post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was the example Moldbug used, claiming that Africans made genetically better slaves than Native Americans. 5F36B5F62640 contended that the groups that were not better slaves should feel unwelcome. This is just the basic logical implication of taking those two claims together. Rather than attacking me personally, is there something I missed or was incorrect about?

You created a 'should' from a 'would', and therefore implied that 5F36B5F62640 had ill-feelings towards Indians. I'm not attacking you personally, nor am I speaking to you personally. I am just pointing out to anybody reading this, that you just tried to smear somebody. Of course, whether you did so on purpose is another matter.

You're grasping a bit on this. Logic does not dictate that there were implied ill-feelings on 5F36B5F62640's behalf. In fact, I can categorically state that from the one post I've read from them I do not believe they have any such ill-feelings!

To restate, then: "Wait, so your argument is that only Native Americans would feel unwelcome in this community?

Is this supposed to be in his favor?"

I appreciate your dedication to accuracy, and I must assume this satisfies your complaint.

Re: What Urbit is

#127
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The norm of shunning people for having ideas you disagree with would result in the collapse of society.

This is absolutely silly. Just to take it to absurdity, and I'm not claiming Moldbug is a member of the Nazi party, but society would not collapse if we shunned people who espoused, for example, the ideals of Hitler and the Nazi party.

"I'm not saying he's a Nazi, but if he was..."

-- Every post about Curtis Yarvin, ever.

Sorry for knee-jerking, but there is really no basis for equating Mencius Moldbug to a Nazi, and I think it hurts the discussion when you do! I have read some of the texts in question, on the insistence of people who say I should disavow this person who I consider to be a real pal. I read the post "Why I am not a White Nationalist" and I don't know how anyone without an agenda can come to the conclusion that this is a person with hate in his bones.

Re: What Urbit is

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's simply a fact that ethnic groups differ in IQ.

I've met a lot of black people, but I've never met the black race. I've met a lot of white people, but I've never met the white race. I've never met a race and I don't expect to. I've met stupid people and smart people and a whole lot of people who were stupid one way and smart another, but I've never met anyone with an IQ and I don't expect I ever will.

Ooo, I'm jumping into the firepit here. I haven't even read the article.

But if he's talking about what happened to groups of people, isn't it correct then to talk about characteristics of groups of people?

Normally, I would stay away from stereotypes and generalizations, and yet aggregate characteristics are useful about talking about what happens to groups of people.

The real trouble comes when you try to apply an aggregate observation to the individual. You can't. That's the racist bit.

Edit: Another problem is, and what we've seen here, is that observations or opinions about groups are often used to evaluate a member of said group when met. Curse our brains for taking shortcuts.

Also, I probably should have asked this upfront - are you up in arms about the construct of IQ, or the suggestion that that a group of people might differ in a particular characteristic?

Re: What Urbit is

#129
post #127
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is absolutely silly. Just to take it to absurdity, and I'm not claiming Moldbug is a member of the Nazi party, but society would not collapse if we shunned people who espoused, for example, the ideals of Hitler and the Nazi party.

"I'm not saying he's a Nazi, but if he was..." -- Every post about Curtis Yarvin, ever. Sorry for knee-jerking, but there is really no basis for equating Mencius Moldbug to a Nazi, and I think it hurts the discussion when you do! I have read some of the texts in question, on the insistence of people who say I should disavow this person who I consider to be a real pal. I read the post "Why I am not a White Nationalist…

I am stating that there are plenty of beliefs that do not cause society's collapse if we shun them. The only reason I mentioned Moldbug was that he's part of the dialog here, and I wanted to make sure people did not misconstrue what I said as a claim about him.

Since you just misconstrued what I said, I was clearly unsuccessful.

Re: What Urbit is

#130
post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You created a 'should' from a 'would', and therefore implied that 5F36B5F62640 had ill-feelings towards Indians. I'm not attacking you personally, nor am I speaking to you personally. I am just pointing out to anybody reading this, that you just tried to smear somebody. Of course, whether you did so on purpose is another matter.

You're grasping a bit on this. Logic does not dictate that there were implied ill-feelings on 5F36B5F62640's behalf. In fact, I can categorically state that from the one post I've read from them I do not believe they have any such ill-feelings! To restate, then: "Wait, so your argument is that only Native Americans would feel unwelcome in this community? Is this supposed to be in his favor?" I appreciate your dedicat…

It wasn't a grasp. The rhetorical effect of your comment was to imply some sentiment from 5F36B5F62640 on 'what ought to be'.

Yes, that is no longer accusatory; and it is correct: there are other sets of people that would no doubt feel unwelcome in such a community.

I think in a practical sense their fear is overblown as 'Code is law'. However people generally make decisions based on consensus reality.

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