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German government to use Trojan spyware to monitor citizens

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Re: German government to use Trojan spyware to monitor citizens

#121

Post by samstave »

brakmic wrote: post #15

I doubt they have capable programmers working for them. A few years ago the Chaos Computer Club discovered the 'predecessor' version of this State-Trojan ("Bundestrojaner"). This version was a perfect example what happens when you _want_ to have such a software but your programmers _suck_ at even most basic things (like establishing a working traffic-encryption). Here's the video (in German): https://youtu.be/zAV-hTp…

I'd say the thing to fear then is the fact that these "sucky" programmers have the power of state mandate. They should be feared in that incompetence is backed by absolute power.

They could do some scary stuff then... or at least they can fuck things up to such an effect that should be worrisome.

Re: German government to use Trojan spyware to monitor citizens

#122

Post by samstave »

mrottenkolber wrote: post #40
brakmic wrote: post #15

I doubt they have capable programmers working for them. A few years ago the Chaos Computer Club discovered the 'predecessor' version of this State-Trojan ("Bundestrojaner"). This version was a perfect example what happens when you _want_ to have such a software but your programmers _suck_ at even most basic things (like establishing a working traffic-encryption). Here's the video (in German): https://youtu.be/zAV-hTp…

I guess you are not involved in politics? There is a lot of evidence that we should be very afraid of the state if you look at Verfassungsschutz activities. They are monitoring a lot of people who oppose policy backed by the state and there is a precedent in which “opposition members” were banned from state official jobs (teachers, ...) just a few years ago. Opposition member can mean for example being involved in an…

What is the expected outcome of "being monitored"? If a new WWIII starts that means you'll be disappeared? In the mean time - what impact will this have on you?

I am just wondering how governments make intelligence "actionable".

Re: German government to use Trojan spyware to monitor citizens

#123

Post by samstave »

TheCoreh wrote: post #37
creshal wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's their usual shtick. The same was used to legitimize blanket license plate scanning (now used for speeding tickets) and data retention laws (mainly used for drug trafficking). "Life-threatening danger" my ass.

> The same was used to legitimize blanket license plate scanning Was that ever illegal? The license plates are publicly displayed and visible, and you could already put people on the field watching and manually noting the license plates down, or even put cameras and look at the footage later. The only thing that changes is the economics of making it automated, no?

The problem is that there is no probable cause for blanket license plate scanning per se - but there are certain cities that mandated ACTUAL companies to install license plate scanners/cameras on their private buildings to scan all cars driving by - then forced companies to try to keep this secret.

That should not be legal.

Re: German government to use Trojan spyware to monitor citizens

#124

Post by germanier »

samstave wrote: post #123
TheCoreh wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The same was used to legitimize blanket license plate scanning Was that ever illegal? The license plates are publicly displayed and visible, and you could already put people on the field watching and manually noting the license plates down, or even put cameras and look at the footage later. The only thing that changes is the economics of making it automated, no?

The problem is that there is no probable cause for blanket license plate scanning per se - but there are certain cities that mandated ACTUAL companies to install license plate scanners/cameras on their private buildings to scan all cars driving by - then forced companies to try to keep this secret. That should not be legal.

In Germany? Do you have a source for that?

Re: German government to use Trojan spyware to monitor citizens

#125

Post by nandhp »

pluma wrote: post #107
antitamper wrote: post #61

What's to stop someone setting up a honey trap computer all exposed with Microspy Windows running on it, and effectively summoning these guys. I genuinely am interested in their payloads...

Nothing. Also nothing is stopping anti-virus companies from making their software detect the "Bundestrojaner" as soon as they have learned to recognize it. They have done this with the previous version, too: https://www.avira.com/en/support-for-home-knowledgebase-deta... (2011)

For context, Avira is a German anti-virus company.

Re: German government to use Trojan spyware to monitor citizens

#126

Post by mrottenkolber »

samstave wrote: post #122
mrottenkolber wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess you are not involved in politics? There is a lot of evidence that we should be very afraid of the state if you look at Verfassungsschutz activities. They are monitoring a lot of people who oppose policy backed by the state and there is a precedent in which “opposition members” were banned from state official jobs (teachers, ...) just a few years ago. Opposition member can mean for example being involved in an…

What is the expected outcome of "being monitored"? If a new WWIII starts that means you'll be disappeared? In the mean time - what impact will this have on you? I am just wondering how governments make intelligence "actionable".

Right now its mostly about “divide and conquer”. They inject moles into political groups which will then actively push for violence and extremism which in turn causes a split of the group. Another effect is that people that are active in opposition politics are always questioning whether their comrades are on the states payroll (“V-Mann”). The goals here are to 1) weaken opposition, and 2) provide plausible reason for more sate security (e.g. Verfassungsschutz).

(Historically, the Verfassungsschutz was founded after WW2 and its goal was to persecute communists. It was headed by hardcore Nazis for more than 30 years. Even the Americans called it a “phony” institution, since its name translates to “Constitution Protectors”.)

There are rumors that big parts of the Neo-Nazi scene is funded by the Verfassungsschutz. They funded and instrumented the NSU assassinations and the Oktoberfest bombing. That's only what we know of today, go figure.

If there was a fascist regime change in Germany, yes, I would expect a lot of people to be disappeared.

Impact on me personally, right now? How would you feel if there was a military black-ops agency tapping you?

Re: German government to use Trojan spyware to monitor citizens

#128

Post by drzaiusapelord »

brakmic wrote: post #15

I doubt they have capable programmers working for them. A few years ago the Chaos Computer Club discovered the 'predecessor' version of this State-Trojan ("Bundestrojaner"). This version was a perfect example what happens when you _want_ to have such a software but your programmers _suck_ at even most basic things (like establishing a working traffic-encryption). Here's the video (in German): https://youtu.be/zAV-hTp…

I don't buy the whole "real programmers would never make spyware." Who do you think made Stuxnet?

Re: German government to use Trojan spyware to monitor citizens

#129

Post by samstave »

germanier wrote: post #124
samstave wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that there is no probable cause for blanket license plate scanning per se - but there are certain cities that mandated ACTUAL companies to install license plate scanners/cameras on their private buildings to scan all cars driving by - then forced companies to try to keep this secret. That should not be legal.

In Germany? Do you have a source for that?

No, California, US

Re: German government to use Trojan spyware to monitor citizens

#130

Post by anon4711 »

ptaipale wrote: post #68
Xylakant wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're conveniently letting out the part about the racist remarks which are the actual cause. I'm all in favor of not letting racists teach children.

Well, very likely the same can be said about anti-nuclear protesters: they're not excluded for "political reasons", but for criminal actions which are "actual cause". Or so someone says. (Though in the case of this teacher, it looks like no crime could be cooked up). With AfD I've heard of trying to use just the political alignment as a reason (couldn't find the link just now).

You're missing the key difference here: The maximum an anti-nuclear protester could hope to achieve through his or her actions would be to have the country quit nuclear power generation, nuclear waste storage, etc.

The political views of a far-right politician such as Höcke (probably aka Landolf Ladig[1]), if you translate them into what he hopes to turn Germany into, threaten the liberal democratic basis of the German constitution. And that we have a law against.

Naturally, the means through which said anti-nuclear activists try to achieve their goals, if only of making themselves heard, need to be legal, and if those actions are sufficiently illegal that they constitute a crime, I'm sure that will get the perpetrators in trouble and rightly so.

[1] https://andreaskemper.wordpress.com/2016/01/09/landolf-ladig...

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