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The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets

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Re: The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets

#111

Post by throwaway344 »

ripb wrote: post #71
p01926 wrote: post #15

How much longer can this continue? We have American agencies attacking American companies "because terrorism". It's been 13 years since our trauma, maybe now's the time to remove the razor blade from our wrists, look ourselves in the mirror and just carry on. Bad stuff is always going to be in our future — stuff that will increasingly appear preventable between the Internet and a lot of hindsight — but our current so…

>The war on terror, like all the metaphorical wars, is really a civil war. It needs to stop now. There's too much money at stake for those at the top for this to be stopped. Lucrative contracts for all their buddies whether it's in consultancy or providing military hardware and software. I mean the fact that congress keep ordering tanks the military themselves have proclaimed loudly that they neither want nor need sh…

I think you're missing the real motive for Congress ordering hardware that the military doesn't want.

It's what their constituents want.

They are (by and large) not doing that sort of thing out of some scheming to enrich themselves. They want to be reelected to their next term, and delivering some federal cash and contracts to your district is the perfect way to do that.

Re: The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets

#112

Post by happyscrappy »

bediger4000 wrote: post #106
iak8god wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm strongly opposed to sweeping surveillance, but not even a little bit torn on this story. I'm glad it's now public knowledge, but this is exactly the sort of thing our intelligence agencies should be doing. Edit to expand on "should be doing": at the very least, they ought to explore such vulnerabilities as a defensive measure since their counterparts in every other State are clearly doing the same thing whenever…

I really don't think that "Well, Russia's Doing It!" is a very good justification for clearly unethical, and probably illegal, actions. The reason for mass surveillance is control of the populace. Mass surveillance clearly doesn't prevent terrorism: most of this 4th-Amendment-violating dragnet surveillance was in place well before the Boston Bombing, and nobody caught the Tsarnaevs. So, I'm not a little torn, either:…

> well before the Boston Bombing, and nobody caught the Tsarnaevs.

They were on the radar but you really can't arrest someone until they do something.

Re: The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets

#113

Post by iak8god »

bediger4000 wrote: post #106
iak8god wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm strongly opposed to sweeping surveillance, but not even a little bit torn on this story. I'm glad it's now public knowledge, but this is exactly the sort of thing our intelligence agencies should be doing. Edit to expand on "should be doing": at the very least, they ought to explore such vulnerabilities as a defensive measure since their counterparts in every other State are clearly doing the same thing whenever…

I really don't think that "Well, Russia's Doing It!" is a very good justification for clearly unethical, and probably illegal, actions. The reason for mass surveillance is control of the populace. Mass surveillance clearly doesn't prevent terrorism: most of this 4th-Amendment-violating dragnet surveillance was in place well before the Boston Bombing, and nobody caught the Tsarnaevs. So, I'm not a little torn, either:…

Do you think it is illegal or unethical for the CIA to just explore these capabilities, or to develop them and use them only in a targeted way, subject to appropriate oversight?

Re: The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets

#114

Post by astrange »

a3n wrote: post #39
rodgerd wrote: post #11

Apple should stage some sort of protest. Perhaps they should go on some sort of tax strike.

I don't think it would have any material effect. Most if not all hyper-corporations route transactions off-shore, and hold cash off-shore, specifically to drastically reduce the amount of tax they pay.

Apple is the #3 largest taxpayer in the US, and one of the few companies registered in California instead of Delaware.

Re: The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets

#115

Post by leesalminen »

happyscrappy wrote: post #112
bediger4000 wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really don't think that "Well, Russia's Doing It!" is a very good justification for clearly unethical, and probably illegal, actions. The reason for mass surveillance is control of the populace. Mass surveillance clearly doesn't prevent terrorism: most of this 4th-Amendment-violating dragnet surveillance was in place well before the Boston Bombing, and nobody caught the Tsarnaevs. So, I'm not a little torn, either:…

> well before the Boston Bombing, and nobody caught the Tsarnaevs. They were on the radar but you really can't arrest someone until they do something.

That's not true in America anymore. The USG can detain anyone, for any period of time, for any reason without rights "because terrorism".

https://www.aclu.org/blog/tag/ndaa

Edit:: link for more info

Re: The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets

#116

Post by seba_dos1 »

nezza-_- wrote: post #94
MichaelCrawford wrote: post #32

This is a great argument for "Gentoo Android". While much of the iOS is Open Source or Free Software, the end-user can't really inspect the source that went into their particular device. Note that, to the extent that the CIA steals Apple secrets from foreign sources, they may not be violating any US laws. However Apple does the vast majority of its system software development in Cupertino, California. My next phone i…

My next phone is going to be an Android that enables me to completely replace its firmware binary. I'm not aware of a single (modern) phone where you can replace the firmware of the baseband with something open source.

Openmoko Neo Freerunner. Might fall a bit outside of "modern" category though (and of course, operating GSM baseband processor with altered firmware on public networks is illegal)

Re: The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets

#117

Post by happyscrappy »

leesalminen wrote: post #115
happyscrappy wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> well before the Boston Bombing, and nobody caught the Tsarnaevs. They were on the radar but you really can't arrest someone until they do something.

That's not true in America anymore. The USG can detain anyone, for any period of time, for any reason without rights "because terrorism". https://www.aclu.org/blog/tag/ndaa Edit:: link for more info

Did you read your own link? That would not have applied to the Tsarnaevs.

Re: The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets

#118

Post by stinkytaco »

appleflaxen wrote: post #83
exelius wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm actually somewhat torn on this. While I'm against mass surveillance, I think that targeted surveillance can be a good thing. By nature of it being targeted, it is expensive to use on more people than necessary. The kind of spying the CIA would enable through compromising Apple secrets would be restricted to high-value targets if for no other reason than to ensure none of their targets knew they had that capabilit…

Targeted surveillance... like a search warrant? Somehow we have been doing fine under the constitution for 200 years. Now a dozen men kamikaze a building, and we have to take away everyone's freedom in order to protect them? F that. Police and the executive branch are just being lazy. Get off your ass, do some human intelligence, investigate leads, and get a warrant if you have probable cause. Otherwise, get the hell…

I remember when they busted Ulbricht thinking, "if they were able to catch someone who seemed by most accounts to be fairly careful (used encryption, Tor, etc.), how come we need dragnet surveillance?" I'd be curious to hear if dragnetting is even effective and if so, what the cost/benefit analysis is when you factor in both financial and ethical costs.

Re: The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets

#119

Post by leesalminen »

happyscrappy wrote: post #117
leesalminen wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not true in America anymore. The USG can detain anyone, for any period of time, for any reason without rights "because terrorism". https://www.aclu.org/blog/tag/ndaa Edit:: link for more info

Did you read your own link? That would not have applied to the Tsarnaevs.

Why would it not have applied to the Tsarnaevs?

I did read that link, along with many other linked pages from the original link.

See here: https://www.aclu.org/national-security/president-obama-signs...

And here: http://www.salon.com/2011/12/16/three_myths_about_the_detent...

There does seem to be a lot of debate on this topic regarding the wording of the bill and how it applies to US citizens. However, to me, the wording seems very vague and open to interpretation. Which was likely on purpose.

Re: The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets

#120

Post by _cudgel »

task_queue wrote: post #96
r0h1n wrote: post #30

What strikes me after this revelation is how unique the United States is, because: (a) it has dozens of companies that create technology the rest of the world uses, and (b) it has a govt. that secretly works to undermine the technology developed by those companies. You're not going to hear about many foreign govt's actively hacking their country's software products, simply because they could easily/secretly armtwist…

Not a peep was made while the intelligence community got in bed with tech companies. It was mutually beneficial and still is. The only reason you're hearing about this is because it's good PR for Apple, after their intimate relations with the security apparatus were exposed.

Could you point us at that exposure? I'd like to read it.
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