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The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets

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Re: The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets

#31

Post by Asparagirl »

Asparagirl wrote: post #9

If I'm understanding this right, this article is claiming that the CIA served up [edit: could serve up, not proven they did, see comments below about plausibility] poisoned versions of XCode, which would then be used to make App Store apps that eventually phoned home to Langley with either app-specific data or whole-phone data. This raises so many questions, among them: 1) What was [edit: would be] the criteria for s…

Okay, can't sleep, so:

5) The whole point of this proof-of-concept seems to be to have unsuspecting, innocent devs who build regular boring apps, like Tinder For Dogs or whatever, unknowingly build the app using poisoned XCode. That way, when Mr. Bad Guy eventually installs Tinder For Dogs on his iPhone, the CIA gets a secret backdoor to his entire phone.

But this seems so overly complicated! If the CIA already has a payload that phones home, why didn't they just build their own apps? Why rely on poisoning a dev environment in the vague hope that Mr. Bad Guy will someday download this particular app? What if Mr. Bad Guy doesn't even have a dog?

Also, I wrote above that an intelligence agency would not likely be interested in getting data from something like a single-player game. There's probably nothing useful to learn about there, other than Mr. Bad Guy's high score.

But maybe that dumb game was the Trojan, not the target. Mr. Bad Guy may be too smart to use SnapChat, but perhaps he installed FarmVille or Angry Birds to while away the hours...?

Re: The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets

#32

Post by MichaelCrawford »

This is a great argument for "Gentoo Android".

While much of the iOS is Open Source or Free Software, the end-user can't really inspect the source that went into their particular device.

Note that, to the extent that the CIA steals Apple secrets from foreign sources, they may not be violating any US laws. However Apple does the vast majority of its system software development in Cupertino, California.

My next phone is going to be an Android that enables me to completely replace its firmware binary. While this does void the warranty, rather than having to be concerned about potentially skanky jailbreak exploits, one more or less just sets a flag with an Android SDK command-line tool, then you can install your own firmware.

That will be of limited use in protecting me against hardware backdoors, but at least it will let me pretend that America is still The Land Of The Free.

Among the reason I am so adamant about stuff like this, and that I use my real name when I post about it so publicly, is that I am related to Roger Sherman, the fourth signer of the US Declaration of Independence, as well as to William Tecumseh Sherman and George B. McClellan, the two Generals-in-Chief of the Union Army during the American Civil War.

My mother was an active member of the Daughters of the American Revolution; I myself am entitled to membership in the Sons of the American Revolution.

Re: The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets

#33

Post by JohnLen »

higherpurpose wrote: post #26
SagelyGuru wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is certainly in the interests of the government and its spying agencies for the big monopolies to be successful. It must be a comforting thought to them to know that if they bug just Apple and Microsoft, at a stroke they have over 90% of the population under effective surveillance.

It's a shame Apple became so cooperative with the government recently. They agreed to "share cyberthreat info" which could mean zero-days, and maybe much more, which we know how the government will want to use first (hint: not for security). My guess is Tim Cook agreed for the same reason Microsoft agreed to do the same thing long ago, and now again with the new program - to get government contracts, such as the one…

Test

Re: The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets

#34

Post by JohnLen »

Intermernet wrote: post #21
IBM wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9176630

You may have posted the wrong link there. It seems to be a link to @okasaki's comment, which doesn't seem to pertain to the issue you mentioned, and contains no links of it's own. I assume copypasta error? I'd still appreciate it if you have any links, as I'm trying to map out the various accusations and counter-accusations in the Snowden case. It's a good study in information warfare :-)

Test

Re: The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets

#35

Post by JohnLen »

Asparagirl wrote: post #9

If I'm understanding this right, this article is claiming that the CIA served up [edit: could serve up, not proven they did, see comments below about plausibility] poisoned versions of XCode, which would then be used to make App Store apps that eventually phoned home to Langley with either app-specific data or whole-phone data. This raises so many questions, among them: 1) What was [edit: would be] the criteria for s…

Test aspa

Re: The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets

#36

Post by aburan28 »

IBM wrote: post #7
okasaki wrote: post #5

The cynic in me feels that this might be part of a PR campaign coordinated between the US govt and US tech companies to try to give the impression of an adversarial relationship between the two. The article quotes Steven Bellovin: “Their attitude is basically amoral: whatever works is OK.” If you forgot the article, could you tell who this is talking about? The government or the corporations? It seems like it fits bo…

Interesting twist when Glenn Greenwald/Snowden is now suspected of doing PR for tech companies.

It was written by Jeremy Scahill.

Re: The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets

#37

Post by IBM »

aburan28 wrote: post #36
IBM wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting twist when Glenn Greenwald/Snowden is now suspected of doing PR for tech companies.

It was written by Jeremy Scahill.

Glenn Greenwald is the "Co-founding Editor" and the source for the story were the Snowden documents.

Re: The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets

#38

Post by a3n »

Intermernet wrote: post #25
onion2k wrote: post #3

The implication of the article is that this is some sort of specific attack against Apple. Surely the reality is that the CIA, and pretty much all 3-letter agencies globally, in a concerted and organised way try to break the security of all secure devices. That's a big part of their job - you can't gather intelligence if you can't read it. The good things in the article are two-fold: firstly, Apple haven't just capit…

I think the point of The Intercept releasing this Apple specific info (mostly, there's a bit about Microsoft being targeted as well) is to try to appeal to the large number of Apple customers. I'd love to see some of the other line items in the leaked CBJ document, as there are probably some other targeted attacks documented. Regarding Apple not capitulating, I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt, and assuming tha…

"No comment" from Cook would be an interesting standoff. If he were prosecuted for it, that would confirm something NSL-like. But would it be worth it to a CEO to go to jail for a few years for a principle?

Re: The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets

#39

Post by a3n »

rodgerd wrote: post #11

Apple should stage some sort of protest. Perhaps they should go on some sort of tax strike.

I don't think it would have any material effect. Most if not all hyper-corporations route transactions off-shore, and hold cash off-shore, specifically to drastically reduce the amount of tax they pay.

Re: The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets

#40

Post by prawn »

SagelyGuru wrote: post #13
okasaki wrote: post #5

The cynic in me feels that this might be part of a PR campaign coordinated between the US govt and US tech companies to try to give the impression of an adversarial relationship between the two. The article quotes Steven Bellovin: “Their attitude is basically amoral: whatever works is OK.” If you forgot the article, could you tell who this is talking about? The government or the corporations? It seems like it fits bo…

It is certainly in the interests of the government and its spying agencies for the big monopolies to be successful. It must be a comforting thought to them to know that if they bug just Apple and Microsoft, at a stroke they have over 90% of the population under effective surveillance.

At times, I have wondered if the government's murkiest depths are organised enough to have fostered growth and developments in these companies of the future. You know, get their tentacles in sooner rather than later.
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