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Questions about Nasa's space drive answered

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Re: Questions about Nasa's space drive answered

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, but it's the fluid flow bit that complicates it. We absolutely understand lift in the Newtonian sense of a reaction, but wings, we're still learning about. If we weren't, we wouldn't have developed winglets and other such adaptations, as we slowly but surely assemble the theoretical particles into a coherent whole.

If we weren't, we wouldn't have developed winglets and other such adaptations... Is the development of new programming languages evidence that we don't "understand" computers? In some very abstract sense, yes, but in a more practical sense - no.

No, but I'd say it means we don't understand software.

Re: Questions about Nasa's space drive answered

#112
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While it's true that most reactionless drives break some of the most basic physical laws, that's not the case for all of them. An Alcubierre drive is a good example of a propulsion method that works within the current laws, yet does not emit anything. The idea that the designs they tested (and EmDrive) would be reactionless is exactly why everybody is so baffled and excited by this. If they are, they must have some w…

Alcubierre drive is not a thruster, you can't attach it to a spaceship to move it. It's something like: "If you put a spaceship inside this, and it stabilizes the gravity field using that, then it will travel faster than light in an external reference frame." It travels at a constant speed, so it doesn't need to emit particles to change the momentum. (On the other side, it uses exotic matter that no one has ever seen…

I asked a particle physicist to compare the validity of this to the faster than light neutrino claim that came up and his response was:

"Although several people are drawing that comparison, they're really not in the same class. OPERA did an extremely thorough analysis of the faster than light neutrino result before they published. In the end it turned out to be a very subtle experimental error that cause the problems.

In contrast, this is just junk science from start to finish. The initial claim was likely an outright lie to lure investors."

Re: Questions about Nasa's space drive answered

#113

Deep breaths. Probably experimental error. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof... God DAMN this is exciting.

Indeed. As to the whole "we don't actually understand how it works" - we still can't make up our minds as to how wings work, so this isn't overly novel. Sure, we can explain the outcome, but whether it's Navier-Stokes or Bernoulli or something else, we can't make up our minds. I suspect this will be similar for a long while - although puts physics hat on I think this is likely a relativistic temporal quantisation eff…

There is no confusion among physicists about how wings work.

Re: Questions about Nasa's space drive answered

#114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Baez is right, there's no such thing as "virtual plasma". Just Google the phrase.

You missed the point. Someone probably used a different phrase trying to describe a physical phenomena, which exists, under a different description. You can take a look at some popular lectures of Dr.Krauss where he describes empty space in more detail, which is full of virtual particles.

It's not a missed point. The term "plasma" means something very specific. You can't just take an existing thing (virtual particles) and slap the term "plasma" to the end of it and necessarily be correct.

Re: Questions about Nasa's space drive answered

#115

Short version: Unless they believe the machine breaks some of the fundamental physics laws, the device must emit something. With this definition using a red LED Laser powered by a 1.5V battery in the back of the spacecraft is a "no reaction mass" thruster. The problem is that the momentum / energy ratio has theoretical limitations, and they are getting too much momentum. Long version (based on a previous comment http…

Relativity says the speed of light is the same in all reference frames. Newton's Third Law says any action has an equal and opposite reaction. These two ideas are incompatible. If you shine a light beam from a moving object, it doesn't make a faster moving light beam. The reaction is not equal and opposite. Since light carries momentum, Newton's ideas about conservation of momentum might be wrong too.

Re: Questions about Nasa's space drive answered

#116
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For various values of "we". http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/lift1.html > There are many explanations for the generation of lift found in encyclopedias, in basic physics textbooks, and on Web sites. Unfortunately, many of the explanations are misleading and incorrect. Theories on the generation of lift have become a source of great controversy and a topic for heated arguments. There are lots of bits of scien…

By "we", I mean humanity as a whole. Nobody would contest that there are a lot of widespread misconceptions about how an airplane - or, for that matter, anything - works. A nice blog post on the topic is Sean Carroll's article, "The Laws Underlying The Physics of Everyday Life Are Completely Understood" ( http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2010/09/23/... ).

One of the problems with this idea, that we have the physics "perfectly understood", is that even that statement isn't accurate. What we actually have are unbelievably precise models for how things work and people who understand those models at extremely deep levels.

But even something we experience literally every moment of every day, like gravity or magnets, we haven't the foggiest idea of how it actually works. We can describe in great depth anything we wish about our models for these things and experiments can reproduce our theories with exquisite precision.

But these models are merely complex rituals, we don't actually know, at a deep fundamental level, what happens.

The Feynman answer to magnetism, for example, is deeply unsatisfying because he describes all the rituals we've discovered with science about magnetism, but never really answers the question. His answer, in 7.5 minutes are "all the electronics spin in the same direction in iron and that produces a magnified magnetic field large enough we can feel". But why do spinning electrons produce a magnetic field at all? And why does that field work the way it does?

We have built beautiful mathematical tools to describe this force, down to elementary particles, but why it exists at all is a completely mystery.

Re: Questions about Nasa's space drive answered

#117

Deep breaths. Probably experimental error. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof... God DAMN this is exciting.

I'd say that it's about on par with the faster-than-light neutrinos caper (tiny effect, violates known physics, probably result of experimental error, ...). Both would be very exciting if actually confirmed, but I personally found/find the chances too slim to (yet) get excited.

Steven Novella (neurologist, active in the skeptical community) made a similar comparison: http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/nasa-tests-em-d...

Re: Questions about Nasa's space drive answered

#119
post #115

Short version: Unless they believe the machine breaks some of the fundamental physics laws, the device must emit something. With this definition using a red LED Laser powered by a 1.5V battery in the back of the spacecraft is a "no reaction mass" thruster. The problem is that the momentum / energy ratio has theoretical limitations, and they are getting too much momentum. Long version (based on a previous comment http…

Relativity says the speed of light is the same in all reference frames. Newton's Third Law says any action has an equal and opposite reaction. These two ideas are incompatible. If you shine a light beam from a moving object, it doesn't make a faster moving light beam. The reaction is not equal and opposite. Since light carries momentum, Newton's ideas about conservation of momentum might be wrong too.

Relativity is self-consistent and incorporates conservation of momentum.

(Photons can carry differing amounts of energy, and therefore momentum. This is exhibited as differing wavelengths. Specifically, light being emitted from a moving object is blue/redshifted depending on the relative motion of the observer.)

Re: Questions about Nasa's space drive answered

#120

Here are two nice posts by physicist John Baez with some reasons to be skeptical about the "reactionless drive": https://plus.google.com/117663015413546257905/posts/WfFtJ8bY... https://plus.google.com/117663015413546257905/posts/C7vx2G85...

I'd never understand how intelligent and educated people lose it completely when it comes to Physics. They've been exposed to some PopSci tales not meant to be accurate at all and then feel entitled to be right when they figure out some nonsensical consequences by themselves -no proper maths involved ever-. It's depressing.

Baez is right, of course. I've been checking the (Word-generated) "papers" from this guy's group at NASA, they're extremely shoddy: There's another report with their unstable calibration for the torsion pendulum which shows their complete lack of undergraduate lab report skills. And a poster from them where they say: "Q-thruster test articles are going to be tested in a vacuum to reduce possibility of air currents polluting the thrust signal during testing, but electrolytic capacitors in signal amplifier are not vacuum compatible"... Awesome.

I've also checked the Chinese Physics B paper. Their device is completely different from this one. It's an open cavity and they only use classical EM. I don't understand very well how their thrust measurement set-up works so I hold my judgement on their claims, but at least they're trying to be legit.

Violation of momentum is an extremely serious claim (in words of D.J. Griffiths, "there is no principle in Physics more sacred than that"). The Universe would look nothing like this if that were true and all the Physics that we've discovered consistent with thousands of experiments would be gone. The way they use the quantum vacuum has nothing to do with the formalism that made it possible. Several detailed QED calculations backed up by experiments to astounding precision would be completely wrong and we know that's not the case.

BTW, the fundamental principle is conservation of momentum, Newton's 3rd law of motion is a consequence that sometimes doesn't hold, for instance forces between charged particles in electrodynamics don't follow the 3rd law (but approximately at low speeds). If you take into account momentum carried by the fields you get conservation of momentum back, quite nicely as well.

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