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Programming Is a Dead End Job

thecodist.com

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Re: Programming Is a Dead End Job

#111

Post by _random_ »

Swizec wrote: post #104
pyrrhotech wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can become a millionaire CEO if you are intelligent with at least a 10-20% success rate. Get 5 years work experience, ace the GMAT, go to a top 5 MBA, do consulting at 250-500k/year for 10 years for a company like Bain or McKinsey, then get hired as CFO of one of the companies you work for, 5 years later get promoted to CEO. Even if you don't make CEO, you can get to several multiples of an engineer's salary with…

As one of those people - you can live like a king on that kind of money in eastern Europe. As a freelance programmer I can afford to pay rent for a flat in Ljubljana that puts most SF apartments to shame both in size, comfort, and location. What's better, I can do that _while_ actually living in the Bay Area. Just because I can and I like moving back and forth between here and home.

Kings tend to buy houses not rent flats. Ljubljana seems nice though.

Re: Programming Is a Dead End Job

#112

Post by bradleyjg »

eternalban wrote: post #40
ChuckMcM wrote: post #7

I respond really negatively to the notion of 'dead end.' Programming isn't a dead end job any more than welding is a dead end job or painting. But it is a trade . What is more, managing is a different job than programming. Not a lot of programmers really internalize that until they try out being a manager. Architecture, and technical leadership in general, is still another job. It takes the ability to internalize mas…

You are right. Programming is a blue collar trade.

A) That's not what the post above says, and b) it's not accurate.

Blue collar refers to jobs that involve physical labor. The term arose when people on the factory floor would wear blue coveralls, and people that worked in the offices off the floor would wear white button down shirts.

Why exactly every job needs to have a clear path to CEO or be considered a dead end or blue collar job is a mystery to me.

Re: Programming Is a Dead End Job

#113

Post by jamesaguilar »

serge2k wrote: post #107
k-mcgrady wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> "In the Bay Area, there are many companies where the most junior engineering tier earns more than $100k a year" It's important not to forget cost of living in that area is abnormally high.

How could we forget, every time someone mentions a salary in the bay area people leap to mention how expensive it is there.

Watch out, you might lose all your karma for interrupting the Bay Area self flagellation. Honestly, it is expensive, but not enough to offset the insane salaries, at least for devs. If you're going to feel sorry for someone, feel sorry for everyone else who lives here.

Re: Programming Is a Dead End Job

#114

Post by hsitz »

maerF0x0 wrote: post #31
ChuckMcM wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly, you can go waaaaay past zero :-)

no, zero is the bottom limit. Unless you do something stupid like personal guarantees on loans or do not incorporate. Thats the point of LLCs. Limit the liability of shareholders. Edit: I guess I should add, of course legal matters depend on location. AFAIK much of the developed world has legal structures that allow risk to be limited to the "company" and not risk the shareholders' personal assets (ie Your personal a…

"Unless you do something stupid like personal guarantees on loans or do not incorporate."

Entities lending money are not stupid. You can't just start a new business, incorporate, and then go out and have your corporation get a loan. Lenders are obviously aware that the corporation is not credit-worthy, will demand personal liability on the loan, same as they would if your business had no corporate form.

Re: Programming Is a Dead End Job

#115

Post by Swizec »

_random_ wrote: post #111
Swizec wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As one of those people - you can live like a king on that kind of money in eastern Europe. As a freelance programmer I can afford to pay rent for a flat in Ljubljana that puts most SF apartments to shame both in size, comfort, and location. What's better, I can do that _while_ actually living in the Bay Area. Just because I can and I like moving back and forth between here and home.

Kings tend to buy houses not rent flats. Ljubljana seems nice though.

Eh, I'd much rather live in a nice flat than a house. And I guess it might be nice to actually own one eventually, I actually prefer renting. Much less of a hassle.

Re: Programming Is a Dead End Job

#117

Post by turnip1979 »

Swizec wrote: post #104
pyrrhotech wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can become a millionaire CEO if you are intelligent with at least a 10-20% success rate. Get 5 years work experience, ace the GMAT, go to a top 5 MBA, do consulting at 250-500k/year for 10 years for a company like Bain or McKinsey, then get hired as CFO of one of the companies you work for, 5 years later get promoted to CEO. Even if you don't make CEO, you can get to several multiples of an engineer's salary with…

As one of those people - you can live like a king on that kind of money in eastern Europe. As a freelance programmer I can afford to pay rent for a flat in Ljubljana that puts most SF apartments to shame both in size, comfort, and location. What's better, I can do that _while_ actually living in the Bay Area. Just because I can and I like moving back and forth between here and home.

Are you a us citizen or on a work visa? Genuinely curious?

Re: Programming Is a Dead End Job

#118

Post by [deleted] »

asdfologist wrote: post #89
rschmitty wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a bit of a reach to call it blue collar. I have blue collar friends from high school who envy what programmers do and make and I do what I can to try and persuade/teach them to learn to code and make a better life for themselves.

whoosh Edit: I thought the original "blue collar" remark was sarcastic. Am I wrong?

[deleted]

Re: Programming Is a Dead End Job

#119

Post by DerpDerpDerp »

jamesaguilar wrote: post #113
serge2k wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How could we forget, every time someone mentions a salary in the bay area people leap to mention how expensive it is there.

Watch out, you might lose all your karma for interrupting the Bay Area self flagellation. Honestly, it is expensive, but not enough to offset the insane salaries, at least for devs. If you're going to feel sorry for someone, feel sorry for everyone else who lives here.

The high dev salaries there make the Bay Area even more of a dead end than it would otherwise be for the people who are stuck in service jobs for life, such as making food when the devs eat out.

Re: Programming Is a Dead End Job

#120

Post by mcguire »

lukeschlather wrote: post #62
zaroth wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From an economic standpoint, being able to generate 1000 lines of syntax error free code per day, is perhaps the best possible programmer you could be, but its never worth more than 10 programmers generating 100 lines of syntax error free code a day.[1] So yes, there is an economic limit on your pay. If all you ever do is code functionality that other people dream up, in a system design that someone else specifies, t…

For the big tech companies, this is exactly how they are organized. Software companies that don't have job titles like "principal software engineer" and "distinguished software engineer" which rank at director/VP level are going to have a hard time as software becomes more and more critical.

Principal software engineers, fellows, and most of the related titles don't write code, in my experience.
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