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Programming Is a Dead End Job

thecodist.com

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Re: Programming Is a Dead End Job

#61

Post by pcurve »

WalterBright wrote: post #48

> Maybe it's dumb but you have a choice between doing what you love and making a big payout by doing something else. This is not strictly true. Programmers are relatively well paid. You can decide to live significantly below your means, and invest the rest. For example, my neighbor once referred to his Oldsmobile as his "quarter million dollar Olds". I asked him what he meant, and he said that was the current value o…

I agree. Sr. Software engineers at our company can make $120k + bonus. It's not that different than their IT managers.

And IT manager is a really crappy job if you love to code. Also, it is very difficult to go from becoming IT manager to IT director or higher, especially in bigger companies.

VP of IT in large companies is filthy rich territory as per OP, but for everyone VP of IT, there are several hundred developer. Opportunity to become VP, or even director is not all that common.

Re: Programming Is a Dead End Job

#62

Post by lukeschlather »

zaroth wrote: post #41
ChuckMcM wrote: post #7

I respond really negatively to the notion of 'dead end.' Programming isn't a dead end job any more than welding is a dead end job or painting. But it is a trade . What is more, managing is a different job than programming. Not a lot of programmers really internalize that until they try out being a manager. Architecture, and technical leadership in general, is still another job. It takes the ability to internalize mas…

From an economic standpoint, being able to generate 1000 lines of syntax error free code per day, is perhaps the best possible programmer you could be, but its never worth more than 10 programmers generating 100 lines of syntax error free code a day.[1] So yes, there is an economic limit on your pay. If all you ever do is code functionality that other people dream up, in a system design that someone else specifies, t…

For the big tech companies, this is exactly how they are organized. Software companies that don't have job titles like "principal software engineer" and "distinguished software engineer" which rank at director/VP level are going to have a hard time as software becomes more and more critical.

Re: Programming Is a Dead End Job

#63

Post by cool-RR »

So... Not-likely-to-make-you-into-a-multi-millionare == Dead end?

Also: "in 15 years he went all the way to being CEO of a $4B company. After 10 years he retired recently with mansions and cars and no worries"

If not having any worries is your goal, I'm not sure that CEO is the right career path for you.

Re: Programming Is a Dead End Job

#64

Post by chrisdevereux »

maerF0x0 wrote: post #31
ChuckMcM wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly, you can go waaaaay past zero :-)

no, zero is the bottom limit. Unless you do something stupid like personal guarantees on loans or do not incorporate. Thats the point of LLCs. Limit the liability of shareholders. Edit: I guess I should add, of course legal matters depend on location. AFAIK much of the developed world has legal structures that allow risk to be limited to the "company" and not risk the shareholders' personal assets (ie Your personal a…

Most people would consider their own investment in their company to be 'negative salary'

Re: Programming Is a Dead End Job

#65

Post by jamesaguilar »

andrewljohnson wrote: post #18
ChuckMcM wrote: post #7

I respond really negatively to the notion of 'dead end.' Programming isn't a dead end job any more than welding is a dead end job or painting. But it is a trade . What is more, managing is a different job than programming. Not a lot of programmers really internalize that until they try out being a manager. Architecture, and technical leadership in general, is still another job. It takes the ability to internalize mas…

If there is an economic cap on the value of a developer, it doesn't derive from how much code they produce. Value differentials for programmers derive from knowing the right code , not typing up any code that suffices, and I think pay reflects that. 1 KLOC of the right code can easily be better than 10 KLOC of the wrong code, even if the 1 KLOC is buggy and the 10 KLOC has no bugs. I think programmers are valuable in…

In my book, edits like this are fine. You turn a draft into a post-revision work and it makes the site better, especially for folks who aren't reading it conversation style.

I agree with this sentiment. It's more effective to find the correct company and correct project within that company to make sure the lines you write are valuable. That's where the money comes from. I know some dudes who are smart and great coders who are making (relatively) little, because they are working on fun things with limited economic value. On the other hand, there are guys who are merely good programmers who are making a lot more, because they sought out projects with very high value and impact and moved those forward. Although it's hard to say how either group can complain too much considering the relative luxury of even entry-level programming jobs in this market.

Part of the reason that startups can be so lucrative is not that a lot of code is being produced, but that code doing something never before done is being produced. The code is not the product, the behavior it's implementing is. It's a subtle distinction, but an important one.

Re: Programming Is a Dead End Job

#67

Post by jamesaguilar »

netcan wrote: post #46

This is silly. First, very few people become millionaire CEOs. If thats your standard for success, then every path likely leads to failure because no path reliably leads to that kind of success. Some paths are more likely than others, but none are very likely for the average person. Part of the reason for flat-ish career trajectory is that programmers earn more at the start than most. Some professions have more of a…

Totally agreed. In the Bay Area, there are many companies where the most junior engineering tier earns more than $100k a year, only including cash compensation. To expect to grow by 20% per year on average for a decade given this starting condition is just not realistic.

Honestly, to be in the top 95% of incomes at the entry level and then to complain that you're in a dead-end job . . . it just smacks of a lack of awareness about what a real dead end is like.

Re: Programming Is a Dead End Job

#69

Post by palebluedot »

maerF0x0 wrote: post #31
ChuckMcM wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly, you can go waaaaay past zero :-)

no, zero is the bottom limit. Unless you do something stupid like personal guarantees on loans or do not incorporate. Thats the point of LLCs. Limit the liability of shareholders. Edit: I guess I should add, of course legal matters depend on location. AFAIK much of the developed world has legal structures that allow risk to be limited to the "company" and not risk the shareholders' personal assets (ie Your personal a…

no, zero is the bottom limit. Unless you do something stupid like personal guarantees on loans or do not incorporate. Thats the point of LLCs. Limit the liability of shareholders.

I am an owner / co-owner of 3 (US-based) LLCs, and I can tell you from experience that banks will require a personal guarantee, joint and several, of all principal owners, for any non-collateralized loan or line of credit.

The same is generally true of most lessors, as well. Some (most?) tech incubators / hubs / innovation centers are the exception, and I am sure also some smaller 'mom-and-pop' lessors. But once we moved out of those, we had lessors wanting us personally guaranteeing our 3-5 year leases, although we were able to negotiate those terms away with some of them.

We were able to secure net-30 terms from suppliers, however, that did not require a personal guarantee.

Even if you managed to somehow navigate these waters without anyone requiring a personal guarantee, zero is generally not the bottom limit. If you are a founder, or an owner, you most likely have brought assets and/or money into the venture.

Re: Programming Is a Dead End Job

#70

Post by rschmitty »

eternalban wrote: post #40
ChuckMcM wrote: post #7

I respond really negatively to the notion of 'dead end.' Programming isn't a dead end job any more than welding is a dead end job or painting. But it is a trade . What is more, managing is a different job than programming. Not a lot of programmers really internalize that until they try out being a manager. Architecture, and technical leadership in general, is still another job. It takes the ability to internalize mas…

You are right. Programming is a blue collar trade.

That is a bit of a reach to call it blue collar.

I have blue collar friends from high school who envy what programmers do and make and I do what I can to try and persuade/teach them to learn to code and make a better life for themselves.

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