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Renting vs. buying a home

khanacademy.org

111–120 of 155 posts

Re: Renting vs. buying a home

#111

I'm amazed to see how many scientists are in here. Lot of math, lot of graphs, lot of speculation but nobody even mentioned that we are, before technicians, people. We have desires, we have daily routines, we have habits and we have a psychological environment and background. Renting will effectively (as the video outlined) leave a surplus of money in your pockets. Which you will use to buy the latest gadgets, to pay…

I don't agree that artificially restrict myself financially is a good idea.

If I tied to mortgage payments, I am less likely to try financially risky startup.

If I tied to the house I own, I'm less likely to move for the better job opportunity (or just closer to work to reduce my daily commute).

Another disadvantage of owning house is that all major repairs have to be paid by house owner.

On the other hand, it's much less likely that anybody would kick me out from my own house vs chances of my landlord kicking me out of the house I rent.

Another advantage of owning house is that owners have more control over the house than renters have (paint walls any color, having pets etc.). Neighborhood composition tend to be different around houses that are typically for rent and houses are typically for owners only.

Re: Renting vs. buying a home

#112
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think most people in this thread are not talking about buying a house as an investment, but rather, as a value store compared to rent.

The two are inseparable, buying a house to avoid variable rent prices doesn't reduce your exposure to the housing market, it actually increases it because you're leveraging against it (because you're borrowing money to do it). If house prices drop you can be stuck in negative equity whereby you owe more money on your house than it's worth which can easily bankrupt you. If you're renting that's obviously a problem you…

Of course they are separable.

If you are buying a home to live in rather than an investment you can ride out the odd declining market.

Seems like people have a lot of 'once bitten, twice shy' syndrome when it comes to housing. Market corrections like 2008 are exceedingly rare. I am not saying prices go up forever like so many idiots did around that time, but if you buy in a non-volatile market, it is a pretty safe bet that your home price will at least retain much of its value.

Re: Renting vs. buying a home

#113
post #49

Slightly tangential: Conventional wisdom is just that - conventional, and an important thing to teach people is that there are times when convention should be broken. Back during the height of housing bubble (2006/2007), a friend of mine decided to buy his first home. It was so obviously a "bubble buy" that even before things started to get bad, it was visible from a mile away that he was making a bad decision: He wa…

These types of people are irrational, irritating, and the root cause of so much social strife:

"But prostitution is wrong!" So we make it illegal and cause prostitutes to get roughed up by pimps and Johns. They attract more diseases and end up straining our social support system.

"But drugs are bad for the community!" So we make drugs illegal and we have gang turf wars and a "fuck the police" vibe from the poorer areas of our cities. Tell me again, what was worse for the community?

"But I don't want to live in a city with lots of condos!" So we make it illegal to build new condos. Then a bunch of google employees start moving in and now the original votes are economically squeezed out.

"It isn't right that Wallmart's (or McDonalds, etc) employees require subsidies from the government!" So we raise minimum wage and (through perverse incentives and lobbying) cut welfare benefits to the partially employed. Minimum wage companies replace people with machines and the government gets higher unemployment and less productivity (since engineers are creating machines to replace the unskilled, instead of the skilled).

It's all the same thinking over and over again. An emotional appeal that has nothing to do with good policy. This is why Khan's video is so important. It reaches out to people and educates them without judgement. Talking to your friend he may feel like he needs to stick to his decision, otherwise his friends will see him as weak, but if he comes to these facts on his own maybe it will enlighten him.

Re: Renting vs. buying a home

#114
post #61

The numbers here are weird at least in my area, so it's hard to compare. But in general, in most places, over a 30 year comparison, buying is better than renting unless you get very lucky with your alternative investment decisions. A couple things to add, house payments stay exactly the same over a very long time. They don't increase at all . The absolute dollar amount is fixed. So while rent in an area might triple…

Whether buying is better than renting depends entirely on your locality. Price/rent ratios aren't the same in SF, New York, and Baltimore.

Baltimore has high rents (relative to prices) because of Hopkins, for example. There are many wealthy people from the Middle East who come here for treatment. Many places, price/rent ratios are under 10 years. If you can buy and will be in the area for a while, you should.

In NYC and San Francisco, price/rent ratios can reach absurd numbers: 40 to 50 years. Why? Emotional bullshit, a sense of prestige, et cetera. Buying only makes sense if you expect apocalyptic increases of housing prices (see: Tokyo, especially in the late '80s).

Some of the hardest-to-predict relevant variables are (1) what you expect housing to do, and (2) whether you think your career needs will favor (or disfavor) a move. There are a lot of sociological factors that no one can predict. But most people, when they buy, are betting money they can't really afford to lose.

Re: Renting vs. buying a home

#115
post #105
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, property tax is already included in rent, as is upkeep/maintenance. Therefore, those needed to be added to the ownership costs to make it an apples to apples comparison. Interest is 100% loss also, so what's your point? The cost of both are already factored into the calculations. $400/yr insurance is not going to cover anywhere near the full cost of maintenance and upkeep.

> Interest is 100% loss also, so what's your point? The cost of both are already factored into the calculations. Everybody knows that. That's why you can take positive action to minimize interest outlay over the lifetime of the loan and reduce that loss. From refinancing, to shorter loan terms, to early principal pay down. You can't do anything analogous as a renter. Interest is only a small part of the total mortgag…

What are you actually including in that $400/year though? Are you taking full maintenance and upkeep costs into account?

A new roof and new coat of paint will already blow your budget. Your pipes will also need replacing after 30 years, as would your hot water heater, among a plethora of other expenses that come up.

Re: Renting vs. buying a home

#116
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... And in the end, for that trivial difference of $125,000 over 30 years ($350 a month) - you get to stop making mortgage payments on the house . And you can sell your investment in the house at any point during or after those 30 years. You never stop making rental payments. Worth it.

See my follow-up comment, the difference is actually $1,635,215.78 - $999,083.727 = $636,132.053 Depending on the residual value of the building and the land value in 30 years, that may or may not be worth it. My point was just that the example was highly biased, not whether it's better to rent or to buy. Note also that if you sell, you will have to pay realtor commissions and a capital gains tax on the nominal value…

Can you provide any examples of homes that aren't worth at least the original purchase price in absolute dollars 30 years later? Most of the homes, at least in my area, that are 30 years old are worth multiples of the original price in absolute terms. In fact, my first home was about 40 years old when I purchased it and even after the housing crash was worth about 15x what the original owner payed in absolute dollar terms.

Re: Renting vs. buying a home

#117
post #74

I'm amazed to see how many scientists are in here. Lot of math, lot of graphs, lot of speculation but nobody even mentioned that we are, before technicians, people. We have desires, we have daily routines, we have habits and we have a psychological environment and background. Renting will effectively (as the video outlined) leave a surplus of money in your pockets. Which you will use to buy the latest gadgets, to pay…

The video was completely void of real content and seemed more created as an attempt to self-justify and rationalize the choice for the author of it to rent, instead of buy a home. There are different markets, different economies, different lifestyles, and different situations. For some in some places, renting is wiser. For others, owning a home. I sure delight in knowing that the home I bought in 2010 for $195k with…

> And I get all the benefits of a home, such as a lawn, storage, nobody pounding on the floor because I'm listening to music, pets, a security system, and nobody else with a key to let themselves in whenever they feel like it.

This is a key point for me, though I'd list different specifics. I've owned a house for ~5 years but was a renter for my previous (post-undergraduate) adult life other than brief periods when I was living with my parents.

The great horror of renting is the typical case of renting in a multi-unit building, and has to do with two things: i) neighbors, and ii) landlord or their agent running the operation. Having neighbors sharing walls, floors and ceilings with you is problematic because the neighbors are inevitably noisy (and in some cases there are other nuisance problems like cigarette smoke leeching in). I'm the guy who pounded on the ceiling who you had to deal with. But I also appreciate your desire to be able to listen to music without having to worry about annoying the neighbors. Neighbors tend to be inconsiderate, and I theorize that this tendency, or the perception of this tendency, has increased, perhaps due to: (a) an influx of young middle class renters who themselves did not grow up as renters but as children in suburban homes, so don't understand the norms of good neighborly behavior; (b) a race to the bottom in apartment building construction leading to poor insulation from noise from other apartments.

Then there's the other part, having to deal with a landlord or property agent. I've found that the rise of the class of mega rental property owning businesses, which I see in growing suburban and exurban areas as well as in cities, is a big problem - essentially slumlord-like unscrupulous behavior has gotten extended to middle-class rental unit property. There also seems often to be high turnover in management of such rental properties which also causes problems. For examples read your average negative Yelp or apartmentratings.com review of rental properties in this category. You'll hear the same types of complaints over and over -- failure to respond to renter complaints, imposition of fees and rental raises at any opportunity, a general culture of treating renters with high disrespect.

Some of these problems seem not to be present to the same degree in multi-unit dwellings that are structured as condominiums or (common in New York) coops. As a kid I lived in a coop in NY for a while and my parents later lived in a coop in Manhattan where my mother still lives. The contrast is significant, even though it shouldn't be overstated (my mom's building is probably higher quality than the average Manhattan coop). You get a different set of people in an ownership-structured multi-unit development -- fewer noisy young people who grew up in suburban houses and are straight out of college, a tendency to have middle-aged or older people, quieter, more considerate, less likely to move and with more of a stake in the maintenance of collective quality. I rented a condo in a multi-unit building in Seattle some years ago after having rented in the sort of rental building I describe above and the difference was notable there, if not dramatic.

When I grumble about aspects of my current situation (basically related to the fact that I'm in an exurb and not an urban setting) I sometimes remind myself of what I used to have to experience as a renter, and it makes me feel a lot better.

[Edited to fix a couple of typos]

Re: Renting vs. buying a home

#118
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To your points: Property tax is factored into rent so you are paying it one way or another. Your return on your 'down payment' has to be well above average to make up for your otherwise 100% loss on rent. And there is insurance you can buy at about $400/yr that will take care of most of your maintenance and upkeep.

Right, property tax is already included in rent, as is upkeep/maintenance. Therefore, those needed to be added to the ownership costs to make it an apples to apples comparison. Interest is 100% loss also, so what's your point? The cost of both are already factored into the calculations. $400/yr insurance is not going to cover anywhere near the full cost of maintenance and upkeep.

My point is this:

The problem with the comparison of what you can invest if you don't buy a house is that you have to have the cash for plowing into other investments and still pay for a place to live.

The only money you really have to play with is the down payment and closing costs to make up for the month to month loss of equity and difference between renting and mortgage+incidentals (renting is usually still costlier since owners like to make a profit) in the rent-vs-buy comparison.

As for maintenance costs:

I've had my air conditioner, garage door, stove door, heater, and dish washer all fixed over the last couple of years.

Granted, you have to pay $80 for the repair visit but it is better than paying $1K to get my garage door repaired.

The only things it doesn't cover are normal wear and tear. So, yeah, it doesn't cover the full cost but it goes a long, long way.

Re: Renting vs. buying a home

#119

I'm amazed to see how many scientists are in here. Lot of math, lot of graphs, lot of speculation but nobody even mentioned that we are, before technicians, people. We have desires, we have daily routines, we have habits and we have a psychological environment and background. Renting will effectively (as the video outlined) leave a surplus of money in your pockets. Which you will use to buy the latest gadgets, to pay…

"Which you will use to buy the latest gadgets, to pay the latest cool service, "

I think it is also wrong to generalize like that. There are renters who are disciplined enough to invest most of their "surplus of money" in appreciating assets. One can even invest in real estate without buying a home. Depending on location, a disciplined renter may well come out way ahead of the owner. IMO, that's a message that we should hear more often.

Re: Renting vs. buying a home

#120
post #78
post #61

The numbers here are weird at least in my area, so it's hard to compare. But in general, in most places, over a 30 year comparison, buying is better than renting unless you get very lucky with your alternative investment decisions. A couple things to add, house payments stay exactly the same over a very long time. They don't increase at all . The absolute dollar amount is fixed. So while rent in an area might triple…

Except your example conveniently leaves out: 1) Property Taxes Between 0.18% to 1.89% in the US. Let's assume the mean of the two for 1.035%. In the first year, that would be a payment of $5,175. Over 30 years, using the same 3% inflation to calculate the future value of an annuity, that works out to $246,202.78 2) Opportunity cost of down payment. Assuming a 20% down payment of $100,000, the future value of that mon…

And at the end of that time period, the homeowner owns a house outright which is worth $1.2MM ($500K * (1.03^30)) and the renter owns nothing.
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