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The college-for-all model isn't working

latimes.com

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Re: The college-for-all model isn't working

#111

Post by digitalzombie »

encoderer wrote: post #83
digitalzombie wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen, heard stories of, and worked with the self taught programmers out there with out the degree. This is base on my experience, but most of them are bad. They lack vocabularies and such that when they try to convey what they're doing or what they want other people to do or hell just to communicate with the team it takes a fucking long time and in the end might not even get anything done. They also want to get…

I'll take gross generalizations and stereotypes for $1000, alex. Here's a thought: knowing and understanding concepts is more difficult than learning the lingo. Why not just, very respectfully and casually, insert the correct word into the discussion and help the guy pick this stuff up? It's called "teamwork" and it's really quite good at making work (and life) better. I've worked with too many guys with EE and CE an…

>> knowing and understanding concepts is more difficult than learning the lingo.

I don't believe knowing and understand goes hand in hand.

Computer Science have tons of vocab. If you get rid of all of them then you mind as well spend the whole day doing nothing but describing all the absract concepts.

The reason why we invent vocabulary is so we can ignore the lower nitty gritty details and talk on a higher level and focus on the problems we're trying to solve. I don't need to spend more than sentence or so to describe a singleton. I can just say hey I'm thinking that we should implementing a singleton because it's resource intensive.

Instead hey, let's ensure that there is only one instance of this class because we don't need more than one instance. Even in that sentence, Instance is also a vocab of CS.

>> to believe that a degree is the silver bullet of ignorance that you're suggesting.

I'm not suggesting that this is the silver bullet. But this is an indication that a person have some competent to at least get a degree.

Re: The college-for-all model isn't working

#112

Post by digitalzombie »

67726e wrote: post #80
digitalzombie wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen, heard stories of, and worked with the self taught programmers out there with out the degree. This is base on my experience, but most of them are bad. They lack vocabularies and such that when they try to convey what they're doing or what they want other people to do or hell just to communicate with the team it takes a fucking long time and in the end might not even get anything done. They also want to get…

That's the funny thing about anecdotes. You get to cherry-pick examples and make broad allegations from those cherry-picked examples. I'm a self-taught developer, and I've worked with plenty of "credentialed" developers that were either lazy as hell, having only gotten into software for the money, or were flat-out incompetent, again having only gotten into the industry for the money. That doesn't mean most folks with…

Passion is abstract and it's harder to show.

The degree is the best effort so far in our society that shows that someone is competance in their field.

Re: The college-for-all model isn't working

#113

Post by SiVal »

jellicle wrote: post #33

For those who aren't aware, this is an op-ed (meaning the newspaper doesn't stand behind any of the facts claimed) from a right-wing Koch brothers organization. Several commenters have already noted that the fundamental "fact" here, that certain vocations are experiencing major shortages (the "skills mismatch" claim) is completely false, which it is. The Great Recession stretches across all job fields and locations i…

"...meaning the [normally liberal LA Times] doesn't stand behind any of the facts claimed."

"right-wing Koch brothers organization"

"from someone who hates broad-based education"

It doesn't seem to matter that these right-wing haters are praising an Obama program. It doesn't matter that these haters of broad-based education approve broadening education from the current one-size-fits-all college degree that leaves so many dropouts with a few semesters of useless film studies courses, no degree, no job skills, and enormous debt, to one that offers a much wider array of options for ending up with more value at less cost.

There are many skilled trades that offer much better career options than are available to most film studies dropouts, but there aren't many people getting the training needed to work in those trades, because they are all told that there is only one acceptable career preparation: a 4-year college degree in whatever studies.

Obama thinks this is a problem. The Manhattan Institute agrees and considers his program a step in the right direction.

Yet your main point seems to be a warning to us that, despite the usual reliability of the mainstream media, the source of this editorial is unexpectedly not one of the approved speakers of orthodox political doctrine, but is in fact a heretic, and we would be wise to cover our ears so as not to be deceived, and rely instead on your "nutshell" opinion.

Re: The college-for-all model isn't working

#115

Post by SiVal »

fiesycal wrote: post #110
SiVal wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure what you think the "market value" is that employers won't pay. I'd guess it's something reasonable like the minimum you'd have to pay to get all the skilled workers you need. Raise your pay offer slowly, gradually attracting more people, until you have the people you need, and that amount of pay is the market rate. But what if that rate of pay is more than the new employees are worth to the company, so h…

What I'm saying is if you can't find employees at the current wage you're paying and increasing the wage means the employee is no longer worth it than you have the right amount of employees and there is no shortage. Companies aren't entitled to employees or entitled to be in business. Just because you can't afford something doesn't mean there is a shortage. But companies who are in this situation complain that there…

I understand your position, and I don't think your definition of "shortage" here is unreasonable. But shortage is a relative term--"short" relative to what?--and by some measures, there are real shortages in these situations. If we use corn instead of labor, for example, we might have a bad harvest one year, and the price of corn goes so high that it's not worth buying for certain products. The market still clamors for those products but isn't willing to pay what they would have to pay given the new price of corn. Your definition, if I understand it, would say that there is no shortage of corn; it's just more expensive than you can pay.

I'd still call it a shortage of corn, because I'm thinking of it relative to previous years, future expectations, the causes of the price change, etc. Rent control or earthquakes cause what many would consider a housing shortage, gov't price controls or bad weather create commodity shortages, and sufficiently generous welfare programs (you have to pay a lot more to make it worth working at all) or explosive increases in customer demand (not enough time for labor to learn new skills) can create labor shortages.

From the perspective of an employer, no longer being able to hire people at a wage that makes them worth hiring can be seen as a labor shortage, while from the perspective of a worker, no longer being able to get a job at a wage worth working for can be seen as a jobs shortage, but I agree with you that, especially if the changes are just the long-term evolution of the economy, there comes a point where it no longer makes sense to refer to something that will never come back as a "shortage".

Re: The college-for-all model isn't working

#116

Post by fiesycal »

SiVal wrote: post #115
fiesycal wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I'm saying is if you can't find employees at the current wage you're paying and increasing the wage means the employee is no longer worth it than you have the right amount of employees and there is no shortage. Companies aren't entitled to employees or entitled to be in business. Just because you can't afford something doesn't mean there is a shortage. But companies who are in this situation complain that there…

I understand your position, and I don't think your definition of "shortage" here is unreasonable. But shortage is a relative term--"short" relative to what?--and by some measures, there are real shortages in these situations. If we use corn instead of labor, for example, we might have a bad harvest one year, and the price of corn goes so high that it's not worth buying for certain products. The market still clamors f…

Agreed the corn would be a shortage. But do you think there is a current shortage in STEM fields? A lot of people don't. http://spectrum.ieee.org/at-work/education/the-stem-crisis-i...

Re: The college-for-all model isn't working

#117

Post by pflats »

Spooky23 wrote: post #49
pflats wrote: post #9

"Meanwhile, companies in a range of sectors — manufacturing, construction, healthcare and other STEM fields — report severe skilled labor shortages." Construction and manufacturing have severe labor shortages? I'd love to see a source for that claim. In my neck of the woods, they still haven't recovered from the recession.

Master tradesmen are impossible to find. Skilled plumbers, electricians, HVAC people, welders, and some machinists make more than the average programmer and are always employed. Also, the unemployment system is basically designed for them. If you work for someone and get laid off between projects, you still get paid. The other path is going out on your own.

At least in the trade unions by me, there were journeyman workers who were getting such little work that their unemployment lapsed.

It's gotten a good amount better, but the jobs still aren't steady enough for everyone to be employed full-time. Aside from data centers, there's not a ton of construction going on.

Re: The college-for-all model isn't working

#118

Post by gwright »

danudey wrote: post #65
cheesylard wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a 19 year old programmer who just dropped out, this eases my anxiety. A lot.

As a 31-year-old systems architect and software developer who dropped out of university: I realized that I had to choose between a degree I would enjoy that would be useless in getting me a job, and a degree that I would hate that would be useless in getting me a job. I wasn't cut out for EE or CS, and I didn't have the math marks to get in (and I didn't realize at the time that a lot of my problem was ADD-related).…

> due in part to the fact that my chosen career, systems admin, doesn't really have a university career path leading to it

I need to put a plug in for my alma mater: http://www.rit.edu/programs/networking-and-systems-administr...

Re: The college-for-all model isn't working

#119

Post by nogbit »

digitalzombie wrote: post #112
67726e wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the funny thing about anecdotes. You get to cherry-pick examples and make broad allegations from those cherry-picked examples. I'm a self-taught developer, and I've worked with plenty of "credentialed" developers that were either lazy as hell, having only gotten into software for the money, or were flat-out incompetent, again having only gotten into the industry for the money. That doesn't mean most folks with…

Passion is abstract and it's harder to show. The degree is the best effort so far in our society that shows that someone is competance in their field.

"is competance" or "has competence"? While it may be the best effort it surely is misguided. It's given people too much faith over the years in a system that is old and tired, dated and not meeting market demands (but aka opportunity for those working on a solution, yay!).

I never finished my degree but instead I finished a ton of other projects, businesses and employment that has made me a ton of $$. And I would do it all over again for a fraction of that money because I go to bed at night (reluctantly) thinking about all the cool shit I get to build and program the next day.

Passion is abstract, excitement is visible. If one day you are looking to hire someone and they don't have the academia creds but do have the experience and are pumped up about your company, team, product or project then give them a shot, you wont be disappointed!

Re: The college-for-all model isn't working

#120

Post by SiVal »

fiesycal wrote: post #116
SiVal wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand your position, and I don't think your definition of "shortage" here is unreasonable. But shortage is a relative term--"short" relative to what?--and by some measures, there are real shortages in these situations. If we use corn instead of labor, for example, we might have a bad harvest one year, and the price of corn goes so high that it's not worth buying for certain products. The market still clamors f…

Agreed the corn would be a shortage. But do you think there is a current shortage in STEM fields? A lot of people don't. http://spectrum.ieee.org/at-work/education/the-stem-crisis-i...

Thanks for that link. VERY interesting. My impression, subject to change, is that there is a STEM shortage at the bottom (technicians) that rapidly diminishes as you head toward the top (PhDs), where there is a significant surplus.

I think we are short technicians, because so many people who would have been happy with two years of technical training and a basic, working class wage after graduation are instead herded into 4-yr bachelor's programs, where they end up dropping out with a few semesters of Nonsense Studies classes and a mountain of debt, qualifying them only for welfare or Walmart. By the time they realize they would have been much better off with a skilled technician job and a working class lifestyle, it's too late. I think if we changed our attitude toward skilled tradespeople, we would almost all be better off. Since we used to do this, and the Germans still do, it's an artificial shortage in my opinion.

On the other hand, I think we're overloaded with PhDs, because so many want the prestige, but the marginal value to an employer of additional specialized education in a specialty other than the job itself falls off so rapidly. Someone who did years of PhD work on turkey feathers is not much more valuable to a drug company than he was when he got his bachelors in biology. For many, the prestige of the PhD will have to be its own reward.

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