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F1 2014: All aboard the 'power train' - new rules explained

bbc.co.uk

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Re: F1 2014: All aboard the 'power train' - new rules explained

#111

Post by fennecfoxen »

bliti wrote: post #85
cjrp wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is an area that has been slow to change over the years, due to the small amount of turbocharged vehicles available new. Most turbos are used in heavy machinery (garbage trucks, big rigs, etc.), a slowly changing industry. I'm not sure this is true in England - most diesel cars on the road have a turbocharger.

You are right. My point was that there not many petrol or gasoline powered turbocharged autos. Diesels powered autos are commonly turbocharged. In the USA, diesel autos are not common. Thus, turbos are mostly seen in high-performance vehicles (like the 911, WRX, etc.).

In reply to cjrp (whom I can't reply to directly, strangely enough) -- it's harder to find diesel in the US than plain gasoline/petrol, but not that hard. Most trucks here use diesel, after all, and many gas stations have at least one diesel pump. It's mostly the gas stations along the commuter corridors to little bedroom communities which are gasoline-only.

Re: F1 2014: All aboard the 'power train' - new rules explained

#112

Post by bliti »

cjrp wrote: post #101
bliti wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are right. My point was that there not many petrol or gasoline powered turbocharged autos. Diesels powered autos are commonly turbocharged. In the USA, diesel autos are not common. Thus, turbos are mostly seen in high-performance vehicles (like the 911, WRX, etc.).

Interesting. Is it hard to find gas stations which sell diesel over there as a result?

Yes, there are less gas stations that sell Diesel. Most are located around common routes used by the shipping industry. Also, the requirements for Diesel fuel in the USA is different than in Europe. Plus the price of diesel is actually higher than gasoline.

There is another phenomena around diesels in the USA. Which is the perception of the general population towards them. People often think of them as noisy, smelly, and unreliable autos. This due to the awful diesel engines produced by American auto manufacturers during the 70's and 80's. General Motors is the one to blame for the awful engineering and cost-cutting practices that led the public to see diesels as a non-option.

Re: F1 2014: All aboard the 'power train' - new rules explained

#113

Post by Dylan16807 »

mseebach wrote: post #22
exDM69 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are so many rules dictating the design of an F1 chassis/engine that I wonder how much faster a "anything goes" car would go. The cars could be made so fast that humans could not drive the cars any more. In addition, safety of the audience would be compromised and the costs would be prohibitively expensive to maintain competition. While there has been a set of rules and regulations always in Formula 1 (that's…

A meaningful "anything goes" tournament (compare "freestyle chess") would probably have as the single rule that there can't be a driver in the car. That, on the other hand, would probably remove most of the audience appeal, as it's just not that interesting to see machines compete (as is also the case with freestyle chess). No audience means no money and no money means no R&D budget. So that's probably why it wouldn'…

exDM69's note about costs is also important; it would probably be best to not allow mid-race part replacements. You submit one remote-control car and that's it, good luck.

Re: F1 2014: All aboard the 'power train' - new rules explained

#114

Post by maxerickson »

colin_jack wrote: post #62

As with F1 races, the article seemed interesting at the start but quickly bores the heck out of you.

Is this one better?

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/news/vintage-speed/the-...

Not F1, but very much a case of wiggling through the rules.

Re: F1 2014: All aboard the 'power train' - new rules explained

#115

Post by cjrp »

bliti wrote: post #112
cjrp wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. Is it hard to find gas stations which sell diesel over there as a result?

Yes, there are less gas stations that sell Diesel. Most are located around common routes used by the shipping industry. Also, the requirements for Diesel fuel in the USA is different than in Europe. Plus the price of diesel is actually higher than gasoline. There is another phenomena around diesels in the USA. Which is the perception of the general population towards them. People often think of them as noisy, smelly,…

Ah, I see. I believe there was a time here (England) when diesel was cheaper than petrol, but it's now a few pence/litre more. Presumably that's made up for with improved efficiency though.

Funny how the perception of a technology can be tainted by poor implementation. I'm not sure how European diesels were in the past, but as long as I've bothered to pay attention (~10 years), diesel has been more popular here since fuel is so darn expensive. Will be interesting to see if the gain in popularity of Euro/Asian cars over there will have any effect on the number of diesels on the road.

Re: F1 2014: All aboard the 'power train' - new rules explained

#116

Post by jrockway »

protomyth wrote: post #100
forgottenpaswrd wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's NASCAR, not F1. In F1 you see real cars, doing real curves, not the thing NASCAR does like having a car that only could turn one way. In F1 you see cars going through the streets of Monaco or Valencia, or German circuits that you could race yourself with your own car. BTW I do it.

NASCAR has road tracks so stop the stupid and tell the truth. I like NASCAR because F1 feels too teched up and NASCAR doesn't even give the driver a fuel gauge or speedometer. Plus all that weight and those small breaks. And just to stop another stereotype, I hate wrecks and cautions and I haven't met anyone who does. NASCAR is also the most fan friendly sport with a huge amount of fan interaction with the drivers an…

> stop the stupid and tell the truth

Be nice.

Re: F1 2014: All aboard the 'power train' - new rules explained

#117

Post by thrownaway2424 »

bliti wrote: post #112
cjrp wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. Is it hard to find gas stations which sell diesel over there as a result?

Yes, there are less gas stations that sell Diesel. Most are located around common routes used by the shipping industry. Also, the requirements for Diesel fuel in the USA is different than in Europe. Plus the price of diesel is actually higher than gasoline. There is another phenomena around diesels in the USA. Which is the perception of the general population towards them. People often think of them as noisy, smelly,…

Come now. American impressions of diesel cars were formed by the ghastly Mercedes cars of the 80s and the Volvo DL, both smokey and pokey and unreliable. It's taken many years to shake that reputation. It doesn't help that the manufacturers refuse to market the cars here. VW is really the only mark with good success selling diesel cars in the USA.

It makes sense that diesel costs more because it contains more energy per unit volume and fuel is sold by volume.

Re: F1 2014: All aboard the 'power train' - new rules explained

#118

Post by pedrocr »

bliti wrote: post #52

The interesting bit here is the development of the turbochargers. This is an area that has been slow to change over the years, due to the small amount of turbocharged vehicles available new[1]. Most turbos are used in heavy machinery (garbage trucks, big rigs, etc.), a slowly changing industry. They do not face the same regulations as regular autos. Seems they are doing away with the wastegate and replacing it with a…

>Doing away with the wastegate means that they will be limiting the amount of airflow that goes into the engine in some other way. I doubt that they are using all of the boost that the turbo creates, because it would be a risky proposition to do so.

If I understood it correctly that's not what's happening. Basically you're coupling an electric motor to the turbo. When the turbo is spinning slow you feed the electrical motor some electricity and spin the turbo up, eliminating turbo lag. When the turbo starts to overspeed you run the electrical motor as a generator imposing an extra load that you store as electricity in the battery, limiting the RPMs and thus limiting the boost.

Re: F1 2014: All aboard the 'power train' - new rules explained

#120

Post by stan_rogers »

bliti wrote: post #112
cjrp wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. Is it hard to find gas stations which sell diesel over there as a result?

Yes, there are less gas stations that sell Diesel. Most are located around common routes used by the shipping industry. Also, the requirements for Diesel fuel in the USA is different than in Europe. Plus the price of diesel is actually higher than gasoline. There is another phenomena around diesels in the USA. Which is the perception of the general population towards them. People often think of them as noisy, smelly,…

I think you'll find that it was actually the Rabbit (Golf) Diesel of the time that set the tone. It was (to put it mildly) a bit of a clatterbox, and it was (if I recall correctly) the Diesel one was most likely to see. And there was more than a little bit of trouble in winter as well in northern states (the fuel of the time would become like unto a solid block of paraffin at temperatures above those that normally lead to keeping a car with a block heater plugged in). GM didn't help (and Volvo certainly didn't hurt), but it wasn't the main culprit.
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