If someone creates egghead.io for Dart, I will pay for it.
Angular Announces AngularDart
111–120 of 177 posts
Re: Angular Announces AngularDart
#112Earlier quoted context omitted.
In what way is Dart "so far behind" CoffeeScript?
developer mindshare. Check tag count for questions on SO; 4500 for CoffeeScript, 1500 for Dart. Not to mention the violent revulsion many people (myself included) are expressing in this topic.
By that metric, GWT blows away CoffeeScript with ~15,000 questions on SO. Are you sure you want to use that metric?
Re: Angular Announces AngularDart
#113I'm so confused by the comments here. Did I miss a line where they say AngularJS is being discontinued for AngularDart?
This is the sound of thousands of hipsters realizing they won't be using the latest and greatest toy anymore. There is a shinier newer toy coming around the corner.
That is the only explanation I can come up with. Scouring the comments filled with hate and vitriol I couldn't find much substance as to exactly why the are upset. There is no indication Google is going to sue them for patent infringement for using AngularJS, they are not closing the project. It is open source, if they love and think it is great, they are free to fork it and contribute to it.
Re: Angular Announces AngularDart
#114I'm really starting to get tired of the cynical and snarky negativity on HN. Whoever thinks this is part of some grand plan to force Dart down our throats clearly has no clue whatsoever about how Google works. Standard disclaimer: I'm a Google engineer and these opinions are my own and don't reflect those of my employer. Google is a really large company with >10,000 engineers. A lot of what we do starts as grassroots…
If the ECMAScript committee would just take typing ideas from TypeScript, stamp ECMAScript 6.1 on it, and approve it as standard, JavaScript could become an amazing language.
Typescript is basicaly EcmaScript4. but Microsoft and Yahoo said NO to it in 2007.
It did not happen BECAUSE of Microsoft (Adobe pushed FOR it, Mozilla got cold feet).
Re: Angular Announces AngularDart
#115Earlier quoted context omitted.
"I will never use Dart" That's quite a sure statement. Why don't you think Dart will ever be natively adopted by Firefox at some point in the future?
BrendenEich said this of Dart, 2 years ago on HN, and might help explain OP's sentiment: For the record, I'm not worried about JS being replaced by a better language. I am working to do that within Ecma TC39, by evolving JS aggressively. The leaked Google doc's assertion that this is impossible and that a "clean break" is required to make significant improvements is nonsense, a thin rationale for going it alone rathe…
"forks the web developer community, not just its own paid developers"
Brendan Eich does not have a right to anybody else's effort. It is totally unreasonable to use artificial means to trap people on languages they have problems with, just because you want control of more of the programming world for yourself.
Re: Angular Announces AngularDart
#116Earlier quoted context omitted.
In what way is Dart "so far behind" CoffeeScript?
developer mindshare. Check tag count for questions on SO; 4500 for CoffeeScript, 1500 for Dart. Not to mention the violent revulsion many people (myself included) are expressing in this topic.
> Not to mention the violent revulsion many people (myself included) are expressing in this topic.
Immaturity seems like a good explanation of that effect
Re: Angular Announces AngularDart
#117Earlier quoted context omitted.
developer mindshare. Check tag count for questions on SO; 4500 for CoffeeScript, 1500 for Dart. Not to mention the violent revulsion many people (myself included) are expressing in this topic.
By that metric, GWT blows away CoffeeScript with ~15,000 questions on SO. Are you sure you want to use that metric?
Point was to compare compile-to-javascript languages.
Re: Angular Announces AngularDart
#118Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm aware of JS language angst, yes. Developers aren't flocking to Dart. Many are resentful of it. You can ignore the resentment and the reasoning behind it if you want, but that won't make Dart more reasonable or beneficial.
I am flocking to Dart. Just because there are handful of "developers" yelling and spitting at everyone here doesn't mean others don't like Dart or are not learning it. They just don't yell and spit in everyone's face about so it makes it seems like "OMG nobody uses Dart, please shut it down". Dart is a great language, I like it. It has consistent typing rules, very fast, has a good IDE. I for one, would like to thank…
One rdtsc does not make a flock :P
But I don't have any problem with Dart as an experiment in language design. I don't even really have any problem with Angular.dart.
We can always use another language that transpiles down to javascript. People are free to use what they want. (Unfortunately, my understanding is the dart2js process is horrifically inefficient, but that's no skin off my nose.)
I will, however, drive home the point that Dart cannot out-compete CoffeeScript or TypeScript; Dart will not replace javascript and will not be the native language of the web.
There's nothing to distinguish it from any other language, and it has to deal with backlash like this.
Re: Angular Announces AngularDart
#119Earlier quoted context omitted.
BrendenEich said this of Dart, 2 years ago on HN, and might help explain OP's sentiment: For the record, I'm not worried about JS being replaced by a better language. I am working to do that within Ecma TC39, by evolving JS aggressively. The leaked Google doc's assertion that this is impossible and that a "clean break" is required to make significant improvements is nonsense, a thin rationale for going it alone rathe…
> A Dart to JS compiler will never be "decent" compared to having the Dart VM in the browser. I'm new to javascript & dart, so honest question here: why?
Because it is a Google project, and other browser vendors (those mentioned in Eich's next sentence) don't want to include something from a competitor into their own browser. It'd be about like Ford proposing that GM and Dodge install Ford's GPS unit (hopefully you can relate to major US automakers).
He might have spoken too soon though (or I missed the point), as there are projects out now that I think could very well make a decent runtime for Dart. Using tech such as asm.js[1] -- which Firefox now includes natively (drawing a parallel to Google's Dart) -- along with new versions of JS, and modern JS browser optimizations....it can make for a very efficient script.
As efficient as Dart with the VM? Probably not, but I'm not sure just how much of the market you're going to corner by such an advantage. Any JS outside of a browser will undoubtedly run on NodeJS, which is going to be more efficient than Dart for most (if not all) tasks, and so it just comes to down to in-browser usage. For 99.99% of current web apps, I don't think you'd never notice a difference.
Re: Angular Announces AngularDart
#120Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm aware of JS language angst, yes. Developers aren't flocking to Dart. Many are resentful of it. You can ignore the resentment and the reasoning behind it if you want, but that won't make Dart more reasonable or beneficial.
> reasoning behind it In all of your condescending[1] comments, you have forgotten to actually articulate what your reasoning is. These are as close as you got: Dart doesn't have the open, cheerful intentions Google's overbearing intention is obvious flawed language this one is doomed to fail forced down our throat [1] I'll Identify these on request. They're unwarranted, counter-productive and rude.
Oh, why not? I wouldn't mind watching a highlight reel and you seem so gleeful.
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I think my reasoning throughout this page has been more or less articulated, but I suppose I might try for a compact representation.
What exactly do you think is going to happen with Dart?
Is Google going to add Dart to every Chrome install? Sure, maybe. Will so many developers cry out that Safari and IE will also be forced to implement Dart runtimes?
Is every single browser going to run Dart because Dart will have made such a compelling case that it and it alone is preferable to javascript?
Why not python? Why not C, Java, Scala? We could be running those languages in browsers just as easily as we might run Dart.
Do you think Dart is that amazing? Do you think Dart is just so wonderful that it'll unite the programming world as never before?
No.
Even Google's pet framework is divided and recoiling.
The problem isn't that Dart has to compete with javascript, it's that it has to compete with every other language out there, and it's just not that special. Why Dart? If we're going to be serious about ripping up browsers, why Dart?
Now, I maybe should make it more clear: I don't have any problem with Dart as an experiment, Dart as a transpiled language, or even Angular.dart.
But Google doesn't get to decide the future of the web just because it has a bunch of fancy language designers. Google is trying to shove Dart down our throats, and it's not working, and it's not going to work.
Dart will remain a transpiled-to-js language for a time, and then fall off the radar when it's clear that it doesn't transpile to js very well. The alternative is a fantasy.