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TSA Admits In Leaked Doc: No Evidence of Terrorist Plots Against Aviation in US

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Re: TSA Admits In Leaked Doc: No Evidence of Terrorist Plots Against Aviation in US

#111

Post by chrismcb »

canistr wrote: post #4

But couldn't it be argued that the use of body-scanners functions as a form of strong deterrent for potential plots? If a potential terrorist understands that they will eventually be caught or that the stakes to beat the system are too high, they will look at alternative forms of terrorism simply because the investment to beat airport security is too high.

The problem is there are too many entry points into an airport. If you wanted to get a device into an airport and on a plane, you can. It might not be quite as simple as walking it through the security gates, but it can be done. The body scanners will only deter the "monday morning" terrorist. But anyone putting any amount of thought and planning into it won't be deterred.

Re: TSA Admits In Leaked Doc: No Evidence of Terrorist Plots Against Aviation in US

#112

Post by jpatokal »

growupkids wrote: post #103
tokenizer wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Security doesn't have to mean inspection lines or profiling. It could mean guards walking around, like in an apartment complex or mall. It could mean people watching CCTV. This could all be done by the airline. They don't want bombings just as much as you or I. The only difference is they don't have an incentive to create a regulation that forces people to subject themselves to embarrassment or harassment. Where is t…

But airlines provided the security before 9/11 and failed at that job miserably.

Airports (not airlines) provided security against known threats. The 9/11 hijackers circumvented that bringing in box cutters, not the expected guns and bombs, and by using the planes themselves as weapons, instead of just hijacking the plane and using the hostages as leverage.

TSA is in precisely the same reactive mode: make people take their shoes off after some nut tries to blow up his shoes, etc.

Bruce Schneier: "Only two things have made flying safer: the reinforcement of cockpit doors, and the fact that passengers know now to resist hijackers."

Re: TSA Admits In Leaked Doc: No Evidence of Terrorist Plots Against Aviation in US

#113

Post by chrismcb »

zzzeek wrote: post #7

I know I'm throwing my karma down the toilet here but domestic-sourced airline terrorism has happened before. The TSA (edit: OK, whoever it was that scanned our bags and ran us through the metal detector, if it was not "the TSA") was unaware of 9/11 as well. Argue all you want that we should just tolerate the occasional 9/11-style (edit: or the random pipe bomb blowing out the side of the plane, cockpit doors can't p…

Events WILL occur, with or without security. And they will also occur at malls, schools, places of work, and sports stadiums. but the solution isn't to treat every customer as a criminal. Especially when it doesn't solve any problems.

Re: TSA Admits In Leaked Doc: No Evidence of Terrorist Plots Against Aviation in US

#114

Post by yeukhon »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #93
yeukhon wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does it matter if you consider employing several vans running into the airport during holiday rush hours? If dangerous is present at any moment in time, what do we do? How can we reduce searchable threats? Can we do a scan on entrance to and exit from airport lobby?

We live our lives. Danger will always be present. I could be hit by a car crossing the street from my office to the parking lot. I could be shot in the grocery store near my house. Sometimes, there is nothing more that you can do. Accept the risk and move on.

Sure anyone could be hit by a car tomorrow. But why do we even bother to have education and laws? Why police officers and firefighters? Why EMT and doctors? Why don't we just let everyone die if there is nothing more that we could do?

If there is only a 40% of a chance that a driver given a ticket will drive safer, then there is a 40% more likely for any individual to survive while crossing the street so we continue to issue traffic ticket.

If kids are 40% more likely to avoid smoking by educating them, we will do it.

If there is a 40% chance you will be saved from a gun shot tomorrow because of more effective, stricter gun control, you probably would support it.

If there is a 10% chance a solider will live after a brain injury, the EMT and doctors will attempt to save his life.

If we all say "well let's fuck it because we will all die", why do we even bother to save life? Why EMT? Just fuck the injuries and let them die. That's your logic. That's the logic we get: survival of fitness.

So, let's accept out ultimate risk that we will all die and let's move on and forget about safety. Just because we can't have a 100% success rate.

While the TSA cargo and individual inspection is not very effective, it makes an attack with bomb a few percents harder. It might open up other avenues (e.g. massive shooting at the waiting line) but we can't lose a few percents because tomorrow when shit happens, and when your loved one is dead, you'd be joining the army and shoot those mother fucker out. And then you will come out and say "I wish I had those stupid TSA did their job".

Re: TSA Admits In Leaked Doc: No Evidence of Terrorist Plots Against Aviation in US

#115

Post by gknoy »

DanBC wrote: post #107
Retric wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have no evidence to suggest invisible dragons are about to attack. But, that's no reason to avoid my multi-billion dollar anto dragon defense system now is there? 9/11 was a mild success but there is little reason to think it would work again simply because of reinforced cockpit doors.

> 9/11 was a mild success 9/11 caused billions of dollars of economic damage, and we are still suffering the (stupid, self-imposed) effects - shuffling through airport security without our shoes, mass fingerprint surveillance, longer travel times, etc. 9/11 caused two wars, killing many thousands of soldiers, and maiming very many more, and those people now need expensive medical treatment and rehabilitation and bene…

The only reason 9/11 caused these is because we (nationally) overreacted.

Re: TSA Admits In Leaked Doc: No Evidence of Terrorist Plots Against Aviation in US

#116

Post by yeukhon »

tokenizer wrote: post #89
yeukhon wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know they are already doing this right? American intels are collecting individuals profile here and outside of US. This is the whole PRISM project. And this is what people oppose too. Now we are suggesting abandon TSA and instead favor massive profiling? You will return to karma 0 if that's the route you take. Hahaha

sorry, let me add: /sarcasm. I hear ya. I'm just being a realist. If I was dictator of the world, I'd ban all taxes and let the market figure it out.

If I were a dictator, I'd just migrate to Mars!

and yeah I know it was a sarcasm (hence the hahaha at the end)

Re: TSA Admits In Leaked Doc: No Evidence of Terrorist Plots Against Aviation in US

#117

Post by nopassrecover »

oleganza wrote: post #60
sharkweek wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's be honest -- if they really wanted more funding, it'd be much easier just to fake some threats to warrant more public support, Operation Northwoods style -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods

Thanks for the link. People somehow don't realize that no one was punished by losing job/savings/reputation/credibility for even proposing such a sabotage. Kennedy merely "rejected" proposal which gives his office zero credibility on how he handled possible similar proposals. In the governments incentives are all inverted: bad stuff is not risky to attempt and it gives great rewards.

"Following presentation of the Northwoods plan, Kennedy removed Lemnitzer as Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, although he became Supreme Allied Commander of NATO in January 1963"

Re: TSA Admits In Leaked Doc: No Evidence of Terrorist Plots Against Aviation in US

#118

Post by svachalek »

yeukhon wrote: post #114
toomuchtodo wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We live our lives. Danger will always be present. I could be hit by a car crossing the street from my office to the parking lot. I could be shot in the grocery store near my house. Sometimes, there is nothing more that you can do. Accept the risk and move on.

Sure anyone could be hit by a car tomorrow. But why do we even bother to have education and laws? Why police officers and firefighters? Why EMT and doctors? Why don't we just let everyone die if there is nothing more that we could do? If there is only a 40% of a chance that a driver given a ticket will drive safer, then there is a 40% more likely for any individual to survive while crossing the street so we continue…

If we moved every man, woman, and child on Earth to the Moon, there's at least a 40% chance they would survive a catastrophic meteor strike to the Earth.

That doesn't make it a good idea.

There's always a cost and in this case (TSA or moving to the Moon) it's a ridiculously high one to pay for marginal protection against an unlikely event.

Re: TSA Admits In Leaked Doc: No Evidence of Terrorist Plots Against Aviation in US

#119

Post by zzzeek »

tokenizer wrote: post #100
zzzeek wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

well that sounds more like a standard libertarian vs. socialized angle which is IMO a different issue. I don't see how guards walking around could have much of an impact. if they aren't looking in my bag, I can have anything in there, and once in the confined environment of a plane, I can do a lot before any air marshal shuts it down. Lots of the comments here point out that airplanes tend to be the target because we…

> Lots of the comments here point out that airplanes tend to be the target because we're not talking about "killing lots of people" as we are about terror. The difference being? I'm sorry. Wasn't the Boston terrorist attack not on a plane? Didn't that kill people. In my opinion terror is an emotion, and people can feel that in a variety of situations depending on who they are. Killing a bunch of people, as an event,…

> Are you telling me I'm a threat until proven otherwise, or that we should have policies that treat everyone or a select few that way?

not really, no, this seems like you're responding to something else here.

> I only mentioned the free market because if they were to take this over, solutions would be available for both of us.

how exactly, I'd pick one airport and you'd pick another ? I'm not sure that's very practical in many situations.

> If I were you I'd reflect on how others feel here.

I know how they feel, the TSA is an offensive, incompetent and heavy handed group, combating a so called "issue" that in reality is not an issue at all. The HN community looks at issues in a statistical fashion - terrorist attacks kill extremely few people, so there's really no reason anyone should care about them, slipping in the shower is a much greater hazard. If only the rest of the world could think like they do, nobody would care about terrorism and it would just go away. I look forward to when that comes to fruition.

> I'd love for you to point me to people who are happy about laws like these from a sociological or philosophical perspective.

Well I'm not speaking from any authoritative background here but I'd guess that the average US traveler would prefer there be some level of airport screening (probably not at the crazy levels we have at the moment with the TSA) not for any sociological or philosophical viewpoint but probably more like a "hey can't someone sneak a bomb onto the plane here?" kind of standpoint - which sure is informed by the media and all that, and statistically is an insignificant threat, but there you go. (so perhaps the psychological perspective is the primary mechanism at play here).

Re: TSA Admits In Leaked Doc: No Evidence of Terrorist Plots Against Aviation in US

#120

Post by HN_Account »

growupkids wrote: post #103
tokenizer wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Security doesn't have to mean inspection lines or profiling. It could mean guards walking around, like in an apartment complex or mall. It could mean people watching CCTV. This could all be done by the airline. They don't want bombings just as much as you or I. The only difference is they don't have an incentive to create a regulation that forces people to subject themselves to embarrassment or harassment. Where is t…

But airlines provided the security before 9/11 and failed at that job miserably.

Wrong. Items used on that day were items that were permitted through security. They weren't "missed".
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