TSA Admits In Leaked Doc: No Evidence of Terrorist Plots Against Aviation in US • Hacker News Board

Re: TSA Admits In Leaked Doc: No Evidence of Terrorist Plots Against Aviation in US

#81

Post by NickNameNick » Thu, Oct 17, 2013, 9:40 PM UTC

betterunix wrote: post #66

canistr wrote: post #4

But couldn't it be argued that the use of body-scanners functions as a form of strong deterrent for potential plots? If a potential terrorist understands that they will eventually be caught or that the stakes to beat the system are too high, they will look at alternative forms of terrorism simply because the investment to beat airport security is too high.

"couldn't it be argued that the use of body-scanners functions as a form of strong deterrent for potential plots?" Not when all the materials one needs to construct a dangerous weapon are available on the other side of the checkpoint. Go to the duty-free shop and buy a glass bottle, and now you are ready to make a shiv. For that matter, you have lots of sharp metal things and dangerous chemicals in your laptop, and y…

you don't even need to improvise - first class passengers get metal steak knives for their meals...

Re: TSA Admits In Leaked Doc: No Evidence of Terrorist Plots Against Aviation in US

#82

Post by T-hawk » Thu, Oct 17, 2013, 9:40 PM UTC

zzzeek wrote: post #56

toomuchtodo wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever been in line in a long TSA queue at a major airport? See anybody get scanned before getting in that line? With a coordinated attack across multiple airports, you could kill far more people just while they're standing in line to get their TSA gaterape procedure performed than you could by attacking while onboard an aircraft. The aircraft attack vector has already been played out. Lets keep sane regulatio…

you could kill the most just by mass shooting in a shopping mall, who needs an airport line. yet we caught at least two people trying to blow up airplanes in the last ten years (shoe bomber and underwear bomber), why is that? why don't they just shoot up a grade school or a supermarket? (I'm asking honestly here. why airplanes?)

Because airplanes are so highly leverageable from a single act into overreactionary freedom-stifling societal damage. One shoe bomber and now billions of traveler-hours are wasted shoeless at the checkpoints. Airplanes have so many eyes on them and every involved entity must overreact to prove We Are Doing Something.

Grade schools wouldn't have the same impact because the control is more localized. There's no federal Education Security Administration imposing gropefests everywhere in response to Newtown. Some schools and places will overreact, but a small proportion.

Re: TSA Admits In Leaked Doc: No Evidence of Terrorist Plots Against Aviation in US

#83

Post by yeukhon » Thu, Oct 17, 2013, 9:42 PM UTC

zzzeek wrote: post #56

toomuchtodo wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever been in line in a long TSA queue at a major airport? See anybody get scanned before getting in that line? With a coordinated attack across multiple airports, you could kill far more people just while they're standing in line to get their TSA gaterape procedure performed than you could by attacking while onboard an aircraft. The aircraft attack vector has already been played out. Lets keep sane regulatio…

you could kill the most just by mass shooting in a shopping mall, who needs an airport line. yet we caught at least two people trying to blow up airplanes in the last ten years (shoe bomber and underwear bomber), why is that? why don't they just shoot up a grade school or a supermarket? (I'm asking honestly here. why airplanes?)

Or drive several vans with just gas and rush into the airport during holiday. You don't even need a bomb. Just leak the gas and light a match and boom.

I think you have made a good point that others are ignoring. Surely TSA scan is not very effective, but what the heck else do we do?

* intel is too powerful, stupid PRISM is hurting everyone's privacy

* TSA is destroying privacy

* I don't know what else to do

What else do we do? I am constantly afraid of someone hijacking my flight.

Re: TSA Admits In Leaked Doc: No Evidence of Terrorist Plots Against Aviation in US

#84

Post by meepmorp » Thu, Oct 17, 2013, 9:48 PM UTC

zzzeek wrote: post #56

toomuchtodo wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever been in line in a long TSA queue at a major airport? See anybody get scanned before getting in that line? With a coordinated attack across multiple airports, you could kill far more people just while they're standing in line to get their TSA gaterape procedure performed than you could by attacking while onboard an aircraft. The aircraft attack vector has already been played out. Lets keep sane regulatio…

you could kill the most just by mass shooting in a shopping mall, who needs an airport line. yet we caught at least two people trying to blow up airplanes in the last ten years (shoe bomber and underwear bomber), why is that? why don't they just shoot up a grade school or a supermarket? (I'm asking honestly here. why airplanes?)

This is something I've wondered at: shopping malls/big box retailers on Black Friday are perfect targets for terrorists. The economic damage you could do to the US for comparatively little investment is pretty high if properly timed. And you'd inculcate significant fear of public spaces for years to come.

It's not as cinematic as 9/11, but if you're looking to hurt the US, it's a pretty good choice.

Re: TSA Admits In Leaked Doc: No Evidence of Terrorist Plots Against Aviation in US

#85

Post by yeukhon » Thu, Oct 17, 2013, 9:50 PM UTC

tokenizer wrote: post #43

pavlov wrote: post #2

...But as you can see, Senator, there is also no evidence of the guaranteed absence of terrorist plots either. They are obviously even better hidden than we feared. Increased resources will be required to bring them to light. Our department has drafted a new budget proposal that takes this changed situation into account.

Exactly. Why can't we just pull their meta-data profiles from online, and just assess potential threat levels and weight it against the national threat level. Threat level orange? Internet Anarchists and Armchair Libertarians don't fly. Threat level blue? Just people who look like they have some desert heritage. Threat level red? "I'm sorry sir. It says here you we're really, really mad at how a cop stopped you last…

You know they are already doing this right? American intels are collecting individuals profile here and outside of US. This is the whole PRISM project.

And this is what people oppose too. Now we are suggesting abandon TSA and instead favor massive profiling? You will return to karma 0 if that's the route you take. Hahaha

Re: TSA Admits In Leaked Doc: No Evidence of Terrorist Plots Against Aviation in US

#86

Post by yeukhon » Thu, Oct 17, 2013, 9:52 PM UTC

meepmorp wrote: post #84

zzzeek wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you could kill the most just by mass shooting in a shopping mall, who needs an airport line. yet we caught at least two people trying to blow up airplanes in the last ten years (shoe bomber and underwear bomber), why is that? why don't they just shoot up a grade school or a supermarket? (I'm asking honestly here. why airplanes?)

This is something I've wondered at: shopping malls/big box retailers on Black Friday are perfect targets for terrorists. The economic damage you could do to the US for comparatively little investment is pretty high if properly timed. And you'd inculcate significant fear of public spaces for years to come. It's not as cinematic as 9/11, but if you're looking to hurt the US, it's a pretty good choice.

One thing I find terrorists pretty stupid is that they can literally do anything any average individual could do to harm hundreds of people but they choose to organize in the hardest fashion. I just don't understand their stupid mind!

Glad I don't - otherwise I would be a terrorist :( HOLY SHIT

Re: TSA Admits In Leaked Doc: No Evidence of Terrorist Plots Against Aviation in US

#87

Post by tokenizer » Thu, Oct 17, 2013, 10:02 PM UTC

MrZongle2 wrote: post #63

tokenizer wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about the lines? People don't get felt up or forced through machines to wait in the lines to get felt up or forced through machines. I fail to see how someone couldn't just bomb the lines with the exact same effect you're describing above. I'd much rather prefer volunteering to use a private company's services freely without force or coercion, and risk dying randomly, then be harassed and embarrassed and risk dy…

You raise a good (and horrifying) point. If your goal, as a terrorist organization, was to economically wound an industry while killing as many individuals as possible... you really couldn't ask for a better target than dozens (if not hundreds) of people standing around waiting to get through airport security. Clearly, the solution is to have some pre-security security checks. /s

Sadly, you're suggestion will be mentioned if this happens I'm sure. But instead of a physical step before the gates, it will be a mental one. What place could you check people prior to them being physically checked before boarding?

When they think about using an airplane. When someone thinks about travelling, the TSA will locate and travel to them, and direct the citizen through their thought crime machine. If you refuse, then the TSA strip search you and inspect your orifices in public, which will also be the next step from private rooms. /s

Security is a feeling. Also, there are events and odds. The events and odds don't make me feel like policy is needed for me to feel safe travelling IMO. What happens happens. If someone tries to logically attempt to cast blame upon a party for something like a bombing for not preemptively stopping it, then I'll just point to the math surrounding the TSA. IT MAKES NO SENSE.

Re: TSA Admits In Leaked Doc: No Evidence of Terrorist Plots Against Aviation in US

#88

Post by tokenizer » Thu, Oct 17, 2013, 10:06 PM UTC

zzzeek wrote: post #62

tokenizer wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about the lines? People don't get felt up or forced through machines to wait in the lines to get felt up or forced through machines. I fail to see how someone couldn't just bomb the lines with the exact same effect you're describing above. I'd much rather prefer volunteering to use a private company's services freely without force or coercion, and risk dying randomly, then be harassed and embarrassed and risk dy…

if the TSA were abolished I'm pretty sure the airlines/airports would still have security. I think a majority of US passengers wouldn't be comfortable getting on a plane where there were absolutely no security of any kind up front.

Too bad the government makes that choice. I'd assume that if people, or consumers of travelling via airplane, were as you say, cautious about travel, a free market alternative would be better than the TSA.

That said, you're right. But lines, inspections, and "lists", are largerly unnecessary. You have guards walking around, and a federal agent on each plane.

All that I'm saying, is that I'd rather not have to subsidise security for air travel. Let the market sort it out.

Re: TSA Admits In Leaked Doc: No Evidence of Terrorist Plots Against Aviation in US

#89

Post by tokenizer » Thu, Oct 17, 2013, 10:08 PM UTC

yeukhon wrote: post #85

tokenizer wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Why can't we just pull their meta-data profiles from online, and just assess potential threat levels and weight it against the national threat level. Threat level orange? Internet Anarchists and Armchair Libertarians don't fly. Threat level blue? Just people who look like they have some desert heritage. Threat level red? "I'm sorry sir. It says here you we're really, really mad at how a cop stopped you last…

You know they are already doing this right? American intels are collecting individuals profile here and outside of US. This is the whole PRISM project. And this is what people oppose too. Now we are suggesting abandon TSA and instead favor massive profiling? You will return to karma 0 if that's the route you take. Hahaha

sorry, let me add: /sarcasm.

I hear ya. I'm just being a realist. If I was dictator of the world, I'd ban all taxes and let the market figure it out.

Re: TSA Admits In Leaked Doc: No Evidence of Terrorist Plots Against Aviation in US

#90

Post by ethomson » Thu, Oct 17, 2013, 10:08 PM UTC

jstalin wrote: post #59

The GAO regularly audits the TSA by trying to get firearms and other contraband through security. They consistently get a lot through without the TSA noticing: http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/loaded-gun-slips-past-tsa-scre...

I read years ago (and can't now find the article) that the TSA screeners didn't really care about catching these guns. The TSA tested them by slipping one (or a few) fake guns into luggage. If I recall, a screener said something along the lines of "we don't have to catch all guns. We only have to catch those guns."

Sigh.