First Mechanical Gear Found in a Living Creature • Hacker News Board

Re: First Mechanical Gear Found in a Living Creature

#111

Post by jlgreco » Thu, Sep 12, 2013, 10:45 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #107

boldfield wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Certainly, we see some some traits that arise independently in different populations in different places with similar traits and are preserved and develop in similar ways, but the fact that a feature that contributes to fitness arises uniquely in one place is far from surprising. I grant you all but a feature that contributes to fitness arises uniquely in one place is far from surprising . First, I'm not a biologist…

> it seems at least mildly surprising that we've never observed at least similarly structured creatures. Its not surprising that some survival-valuable features (especially when they fulfill a function for which there are other mechanisms) arise and are preserved and further developed only once, since them arising in a species in which they are survival-useful is a matter of chance, as is their preservation. So, its…

"Its not surprising that some survival-valuable features (especially when they fulfill a function for which there are other mechanisms) arise and are preserved and further developed only once"

Indeed. In fact, what I find more surprising is that some non-trivial adaptations have developed more than once. Flight for instance evolved four separate times (bugs, birds, bats, and now-extinct pterosaurs all fly[flew], but none of them share a common ancestor that could also fly.) I find that simply remarkable. Really drives home the massive timescales that are involved.

Re: First Mechanical Gear Found in a Living Creature

#112

Post by agumonkey » Thu, Sep 12, 2013, 10:47 PM UTC

bitwize wrote: post #15

teddyh wrote: post #2

This gives us four possibilities: 1. This geared creature must be considered part mechanical. A cyborg, if you will. 2. A "gear" is no longer (and was never) a "mechanical" device, but instead an organic one. Using gears is no longer (and was maybe never) doing mechanics. 3. Whether something is mechanical or organic depends on the process which created it. This is the "colored bits" or "patent" view. (If I build som…

5) Organic creatures have mechanical systems as part of their physiology. "Mechanical" doesn't mean "made of metal", it means "uses movement and friction to achieve some effect". Some mechanical devices, such as levers and swivels, are seen frequently in the animal kingdom; others, such as gears, pulleys, and wheels, are almost never seen in nature. Discovering one of this latter category is a fascinating find.

Completely agree I was a bit stunned. I've yet to see an organic wheel, many of the things humans discovered already existed in nature (cutting tools, chemicals, fire, ceramics), but the wheel seems to be apart from these.

Re: First Mechanical Gear Found in a Living Creature

#113

Post by gizmo686 » Thu, Sep 12, 2013, 10:47 PM UTC

kriro wrote: post #42

Maybe a little cruel but I'd be interested in some sort of study where a large number of issus' are placed in an environment with a couple of predators. Repeat this with young and adult versions and see if/how much the gear system (adults don't have it) improves the odds of surviving attacks.

What you would be testing is how much of an advantage the young have over the adults. I find it extremely unlikely that the gears are the only difference.

Re: First Mechanical Gear Found in a Living Creature

#114

Post by dragonwriter » Thu, Sep 12, 2013, 10:54 PM UTC

jlgreco wrote: post #111

dragonwriter wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it seems at least mildly surprising that we've never observed at least similarly structured creatures. Its not surprising that some survival-valuable features (especially when they fulfill a function for which there are other mechanisms) arise and are preserved and further developed only once, since them arising in a species in which they are survival-useful is a matter of chance, as is their preservation. So, its…

"Its not surprising that some survival-valuable features (especially when they fulfill a function for which there are other mechanisms) arise and are preserved and further developed only once" Indeed. In fact, what I find more surprising is that some non-trivial adaptations have developed more than once. Flight for instance evolved four separate times (bugs, birds, bats, and no w -extinct pterosaurs all fly[flew], bu…

> Flight for instance evolved four separate times (bugs, birds, bats, and non-extinct pterosaurs all fly[flew], but none of them share a common ancestor that could also fly.)

Surely, "now-extinct pterosaurs", not "non-extinct pterosaurs", unless I missed some very newsworthy discovery.

Re: First Mechanical Gear Found in a Living Creature

#115

Post by CatMtKing » Thu, Sep 12, 2013, 11:02 PM UTC

dsego wrote: post #104

snowwrestler wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Evolution is the ultimate proof of the power of agile engineering--ship on a schedule, test with real data, then work on the next iteration, keeping the good and discarding the bad.

But if the environment suddenly changes you die out.

Or adapt... depending on how shallowly you demarcate a population of organisms and how initially resilient they are to the environmental change.

Re: First Mechanical Gear Found in a Living Creature

#116

Post by swamp40 » Thu, Sep 12, 2013, 11:08 PM UTC

Slackwise wrote: post #105

swamp40 wrote: post #77

It is for beauty like this that I believe all living things were originally designed by some intelligence, somewhere. Perhaps designed to mutate and evolve, or perhaps that was a limitation in the source materials, but there are some beautifully engineered living systems on our planet.

Just because something looks "engineered", doesn't mean it is. A perfect example is the eye. An organ of great complexity, but one that is very easily explained by logical evaluation, as well as existing living creatures and fossils: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nwew5gHoh3E If you're a software engineer, I hope you understand how procedural systems and algorithms can transform data and functions. Similar processes…

I'm a hardware engineer.

I agree with you about patterns and mathematics - also beautiful, but cold (sorry, best I can explain it).

But when we see a complex physical problem, and then see a nicely designed and implemented real-life solution - there I think my "engineered" theory has as good a chance at being correct as does the theory that says it just sprang up from 100 million years of evolution and random mutations (both of which I agree do occur).

Re: First Mechanical Gear Found in a Living Creature

#117

Post by jlgreco » Thu, Sep 12, 2013, 11:08 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #114

jlgreco wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Its not surprising that some survival-valuable features (especially when they fulfill a function for which there are other mechanisms) arise and are preserved and further developed only once" Indeed. In fact, what I find more surprising is that some non-trivial adaptations have developed more than once. Flight for instance evolved four separate times (bugs, birds, bats, and no w -extinct pterosaurs all fly[flew], bu…

> Flight for instance evolved four separate times (bugs, birds, bats, and non-extinct pterosaurs all fly[flew], but none of them share a common ancestor that could also fly.) Surely, "now-extinct pterosaurs", not "non-extinct pterosaurs", unless I missed some very newsworthy discovery.

Whoops, thanks for the correction.

Re: First Mechanical Gear Found in a Living Creature

#118

Post by pygy_ » Thu, Sep 12, 2013, 11:16 PM UTC

Slackwise wrote: post #105

swamp40 wrote: post #77

It is for beauty like this that I believe all living things were originally designed by some intelligence, somewhere. Perhaps designed to mutate and evolve, or perhaps that was a limitation in the source materials, but there are some beautifully engineered living systems on our planet.

Just because something looks "engineered", doesn't mean it is. A perfect example is the eye. An organ of great complexity, but one that is very easily explained by logical evaluation, as well as existing living creatures and fossils: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nwew5gHoh3E If you're a software engineer, I hope you understand how procedural systems and algorithms can transform data and functions. Similar processes…

What more, the vertebrate eye has a flaw: its blind spot. The fibers of the optic nerve and the central retinal blood vessels irradiate in front of the retina.

You may think that it is a necessary defect, but the squid eye, which evolved independently to end up almost identical to its vertebrate counterpart doesn't have it. The nerve fibers and blood vessels run behind the retina.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cephalopod_eye

Re: First Mechanical Gear Found in a Living Creature

#119

Post by jlgreco » Thu, Sep 12, 2013, 11:19 PM UTC

wslh wrote: post #18

john_b wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Four. A gear is just a piece of geometry that happens to be useful for a number of practical purposes. Same with rods, rings, and so on. People apply labels to it according to how they perceive it.

And what's the limit for such innovation? can microprocessors be developed naturally?

Wheels/axles at a macroscopic scale seem rather inaccessible to evolution. The problem is keeping two sections of one animal alive across the wheel/axle boundary. You could imagine different ways to grow a wheel/axle structure out of a horn-like material, but it isn't clear what advantage intermediate forms of this would provide. Perhaps it could happen with two separate symbiotic animals though...

Microprocessors (aka, brains) seem pretty straightforward though. Even a little coordination and planning is better than none.

Re: First Mechanical Gear Found in a Living Creature

#120

Post by quasque » Thu, Sep 12, 2013, 11:30 PM UTC

agumonkey wrote: post #112

bitwize wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

5) Organic creatures have mechanical systems as part of their physiology. "Mechanical" doesn't mean "made of metal", it means "uses movement and friction to achieve some effect". Some mechanical devices, such as levers and swivels, are seen frequently in the animal kingdom; others, such as gears, pulleys, and wheels, are almost never seen in nature. Discovering one of this latter category is a fascinating find.

Completely agree I was a bit stunned. I've yet to see an organic wheel, many of the things humans discovered already existed in nature (cutting tools, chemicals, fire, ceramics), but the wheel seems to be apart from these.

Probably the closest to organic wheels are organisms that form a wheel-like shape in order to roll http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmLS2WXZQxU