Iron Ring

I can't figure out which comment to reply to, so allow me to stick this comment here...

If we're going to perform all these pedantic semantic antics (did I really just do that?), then allow me to ruminate a moment: I do "develop" software. "Develop" has this connotation in my mind of a slow, meandering, possibly goal-free path. You "develop" skills over time - are they ever fully developed? Also, you "develop" film (and its prints) which certainly takes time, but is also kind of a curated, artistic process. Although I do feel that, at times, I sculpt, craft and develop a bit of software, I do this with ideas that are not quite formed; goals which are unknown; a kind of "I'll know it when I see it" project.

I do "architect" systems. I have to decide on a backing store and the shape of the data in the store: RDBMS? KV Store? binary blob on disk? I have to decide on a communication method between the app and the data store: local, native API? Network socket using the store's client libs? HTTP CRUD? I have to consider the ways the user will use this app: touch? mouse? keyboard? does it need new gestures? "hot keys" or "chording"? I'll admit the user interaction is a bit more art, but there's usually some kind of specification for it.

I do "engineer" systems. This feels more like implementation to me: I implement that data design; I implement the communication code (APIs don't plug themselves in to my project); I work around pitfalls and shortcomings continuously ...

I am an artist, a sculptor; I am an architect and engineer; I am a handy-person and problem solver. Hi, I'm delinka and I create software.

They do. It might not be direct or even obvious, but when you make a tool that a person relies on, people a harmed when it fails (or perhaps even works). Our death tolls might be small, but it is naive to believe that any product does not have a price in blood. It is our responsibility to understand it, and to make sure the benefit is worth it.

I wish our school did this, I feel I missed out on a cool ritual.

Can't wear rings on grounds of you don't wear jewelry in a workshop :)

Me and my significant other cast and etched pendants for each other though. :)

> That's nice; perhaps you should tell it to the victims of the Therac-25. Or maybe I'll remember it next time I'm writing some real-time software to control something silly like missile guidance. More and more software every day goes into controlling vital systems in our world

Yes. Totally agree. This idea that software engineers (perhaps I should use a different title in this thread :-) can fail without consequence is nonsense these days. I actually find it quite amusing (terrifying?) that so many engineers I know think they are a-okay with only a very basic understanding of CS. In fact, often "CS" is too strong a term to describe their knowledge. There's a very pervasive sentiment among engineers that they don't like programming, don't want to program, and shouldn't need to know about programming, let alone the deeper concepts of CS. Of course, a huge chunk of them go on to work with systems that involve computers. :-/

>And how often do certified professional engineers design something critical? Does every circuit that goes into a consumer electronics device need to be ultra-safe?

Indeed, every PCB that goes into your microwave doesn't need to be EMP hardened and fault tolerant, and likely is not. But then also many of those applications that have become "commodity engineering" are no longer done by north american trained, "certified professional engineers". In any case, I think the point is you need to be trained so that you have the background to deal with a critical situation if it comes up.

>What gets me is the arrogance, in particular since the Iron Ring is supposed to carry with it a reminder that everyone is fallible, and to have humility in the face of that

Well, I have to mildly disagree with this. The ring is there to remind you that you are morally and ethically bound to the public good, at least insofar as your work is concerned. Many engineers are fiercely arrogant and could use a lesson in humility, but that's the job for parents/teachers/themselves/society in general, not a stainless steel torus or their professional association. As with many "old boys club" type groups, there is a serious amount of hazing and dues-paying that happens on the way up, and that has the effect of seriously distorting the perceptions of a lot of engineers. Also, a lot of the folks who are hotheads and spew arrogance are the types who would do that no matter where they were, be it on the soccer pitch or on HN. Being an engineer simply gives these types more opportunities, and an appeal to authority.

>Having some humility, and empathy, would go a long ways towards making Professional Engineers not just better people, but better Engineers.

Having some humility, and empathy, would go a long ways towards making not just better people, but better .

Agreed :-)

I wish this were the case in the US. Here, any mediocre moron out of a CS program can get a job and call himself a software engineer, and I think it's somewhat insulting.