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It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

sciencebasedmedicine.org

111–120 of 205 posts

Re: It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

#111
post #24
post #12

I have a friend who's into homeopathy and such, and I normally keep my mouth shut. But I have done some thinking about why. This friend is very smart, very intellectual, very curious, and not overly credulous. She's really a bit of a nerd. From my few conversations on the matter, the thing that's jumped out at me is this: She's drawn to alternative medicine because it's open source. Like many nerds, she hates closed…

> I have a friend who's into homeopathy [...] she's drawn to alternative medicine because it's open source. Like many nerds, she hates closed proprietary systems and loathes bureaucracy If your friend, or anyone else that way inclined, dislikes modern medicine because of its insular, closed nature then I urge them to support campaigns such as alltrials.net, which advocate open research across medicine. There are a nu…

I agree. But likewise, your doctor will not tell you that the psych meds they're prescribing for you may be no better than placebo for most users:

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/3085/do-antidepress...

I really wonder what percentage of all medicine -- alternative, complimentary, mainstream, scientific, pseudo-scientific, and so on -- is placebo.

Re: It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

#112
post #51
post #12

I have a friend who's into homeopathy and such, and I normally keep my mouth shut. But I have done some thinking about why. This friend is very smart, very intellectual, very curious, and not overly credulous. She's really a bit of a nerd. From my few conversations on the matter, the thing that's jumped out at me is this: She's drawn to alternative medicine because it's open source. Like many nerds, she hates closed…

> She's drawn to alternative medicine because it's open source. > conventional "industrial" medicine [is] closed source Absolutely false. Conventional medicine was "open source" before "open source" was a thing. It has peer reviewed journals exactly because of the benefits that being open brings. > [alt-med is] tolerant of differences of opinion to a much greater extent than conventional medicine. Conventional medici…

Open source is more than just open information. It's accessible information, accessible tools, and accessible discourse.

Also: most of the replies on this thread have misunderstood my original post. I was not arguing for homeopathy or alt-med at all, and I do think quite a bit of it is baloney. I was explaining why people are into it, from a sociological point of view.

Re: It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

#113
post #12

I have a friend who's into homeopathy and such, and I normally keep my mouth shut. But I have done some thinking about why. This friend is very smart, very intellectual, very curious, and not overly credulous. She's really a bit of a nerd. From my few conversations on the matter, the thing that's jumped out at me is this: She's drawn to alternative medicine because it's open source. Like many nerds, she hates closed…

"She's drawn to alternative medicine because it's open source. Like many nerds, she hates closed proprietary systems and loathes bureaucracy."

Granted, the same can be said for truthers, UFO and Bigfoot aficionados. They're all nerds, but it doesn't take a great deal of skill to be any of the above.

Re: It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

#114
post #101
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are very aggressive while you clearly do not know what I am talking about and doing a complete straw men. In fact the very same page referenced in this post confirms what I said: http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/scientific-evi...

Cool, you found one example where the compounds in plant potentiate each other in a useful way. I gave you an example of where this is absolutely not true, and there are likely many more on both sides. This absolutely does not support the statement " the main advantage of plants over modern medicine in its typical form is that they contain complex compounds of chemical substances which show a synergy in a certain dir…

The "spirit of the plant" wasn't a straw man?

What I mean is that _in cases where plants could have advantage over modern medicine_, they often do so because of their complex chemical constitution that can produce those kinds of synergies, where modern medicines are most often based on at most 2-3 active substances because we have trouble analyzing more complex interactions.

Re: It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

#115
post #77
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't. Do you know what we call alternative medicine that works? Medicine.

Some things do work and are not yet accepted in medicine. Herbal medicine etc.pp. Often it's just hard to patent and/or isn't financially lucrative to get FDA approval. Also lifestyle in general is terribly handled in medicine. MDs know nearly nothing about what matters and what they should recommend. They are decades behind the available evidence.

"Some things do work and are not yet accepted in medicine. Herbal medicine etc."

Herbal medicine is medicine. "Alt-med" is reserved for treatments that are not and will not ever be evidence-based.

Re: It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

#116
post #68
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Women are more prone to fall for BS because we enculturate them to believe that emotions and warm fuzzy feelings are a more reliable guide than science and logic. Third-wave feminism is partly to blame; the notion that science and logic are "patriarchal" and that not oppressing women entails a warm and fuzzy "feminine" replacement for disciplined thought is the third wave's doing. Thinking logically, critically, and…

This is purely an image problem for science education, then. Because there is absolutely nothing warm and fuzzy about the "natural state" or whatever romanticized notion we're entertaining about nature. Applied science, and more importantly, the ability to apply science, enables people to build, cure, protect, predict, ensure, improve, discover, and many other things that are intrinsically more warm and fuzzy than, s…

Yes, Oprah and Dr Oz etc. are all failures of science education, they have far too much control over public understanding of health.

Re: It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

#117
post #33
post #12

I have a friend who's into homeopathy and such, and I normally keep my mouth shut. But I have done some thinking about why. This friend is very smart, very intellectual, very curious, and not overly credulous. She's really a bit of a nerd. From my few conversations on the matter, the thing that's jumped out at me is this: She's drawn to alternative medicine because it's open source. Like many nerds, she hates closed…

There was an interesting study done - and written up on SBM - that suggests that the theraputic effect of Alt-med, at least with acupuncture, is entirely due to patient-practitioner interaction. As someone on the cusp of becoming a Doctor, I understand this. I even understand why traditional medicine fails at it (and it is many of the reasons you mention). And I understand why Alt-med succeeds here. I think it's grea…

You might find this quite interesting:

http://programinplacebostudies.org/

http://harvardmagazine.com/2013/01/the-placebo-phenomenon

His studies comparing fakes strike me as the most innovative thing I've heard about in medicine in years.

A big problem with "conventional" medicine is this: the mind is off limits. This legacy I think goes back to the suppression of deep mind research following the psychedelics moral panic in the late 1960s/early 1970s. They were doing really interesting stuff back then, but the societal effects of probing deep into the mind caused the entire academy to purge itself of really challenging, imaginative research in these areas. Our society is really terrified of that stuff. We like our doors of perception safely nailed shut.

I also think this comes from the mind/body dichotomy. The mind and body are not disconnected entities. The mind is a part of the body. As such, the mind is going to have a profound influence over the body. The placebo effect itself proves this, as do the studies you cite and numerous others.

Re: It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

#118
My paternal-grandfather, who lived to 102, when asked about diet responded, "eat variety, eat in moderation, have lots of colors on your plate"

Anecdotally, the folks I know who practice some kind of extreme diet, seem to spend an inordinate amount of time thinking about their diet. All that planning, charts, dietary interactions, classes, support groups, supplements, and books books books...it never sticks, they end up sick and it all seems to be just a giant waste of time and energy and potential.

Now I'm going to say something that's going to be offensive to many folks out there, but it's coming from a similarly personal place and it's about how people use their control of food as a proxy to control their lives.

This mechanism seems to show up in a wide variety of ways, extremely picky eaters, binge eating, anorexia, etc. Some rise the level of psychological or health disorder, some are just patterns and habits. One pattern that seems to show up over and over (and over) again is highly specialized diets for no specific health disorder.

My mother jogs from diet to diet every few years, she dives deep into the diet she's currently landed on: Atkins, Paleo, Gluten-free, Vegetarian, etc. buys and reads dozens of books, finds food sources, and restocks the entire house. Growing up I was fed under probably no less than 6 or 7 diets of this sort. My mother is a treasure trove of semi-scientific nutritional information and alternative medicinal practices.

My mother had a very out of control young childhood. She uses food and her diet as a mechanism to try and bring control to her life because that's something she can control.

I've found a similar pattern in my friends who also practice a similar relationship to food. Divorced parents, absent fathers, attention draining mentally-ill siblings, alcoholic parents, long lists of childhood illnesses, etc. all seem to be the backstories of the people I know who have intense desires to control their foods.

Anecdotally, it seems to be that these diets speak to a deep place in people. These diets, and the endless books and "information" available in these dietary communities seems to make them feel like if they can just learn the information in the diet, they can achieve some kind of control over that aspect of their life. It's like a complex OCD tick that's only satiated in this way.

There's some endless justification for it, ethics, or evolution, or morals, or health or whatever. But it usually seems to just boil down to people who want and need to bring what they feel is order to a life that's careening out of control.

It usually ends, like it does with all of my friends and family who go down this route, with some mysterious health problem that they try and solve by first doubling down on their diet, then is miraculously solved by just eating like a normal person for a few months.

And inevitably they'll start to overthink their diet, and find some other direction to go and the cycle will repeat. Because their feeling of wellbeing can't overwhelm their feeling of establishing control.

I've heard almost this exact story [1], word for word, dozens of times over the years.

[1] - http://kristensraw.com/blog/2013/03/17/my-vegan-diet-caused-...

Eating healthy is not that hard, and it doesn't really require that much thought or time. You don't really have to read lots of books on the subject, or adhere to an ideology, write blogs, or read food manifestos.

Just "eat variety, eat in moderation, have lots of colors on your plate".

Re: It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

#119
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure if you're just trolling or whether you're actually responding to the same comment I wrote. > I don't think that more women being involved with C/AM means that a larger proportion of women are irrational. At no point did I say or even imply that. In fact, I explicitly countered that notion as it was presented by another commenter. So my position is kind of the opposite of what you're alleging. Please take…

This is the part of your comment where I thought you were implying a more general irrationality of women: >It feels like a big gaping hole in everything we achieved with women's rights and education. [. . .] It's like a large part of our women went to a parallel universe "girls school", whereas the men in the mean time learned about science and reasoning. If you're not implying that a large portion of women are less…

If you read my other comments it should be abundantly clear what I mean. And I don't see how you somehow extract the exact opposite of it from my text.

> It feels like a big gaping hole in everything we achieved with women's rights and education.

I said that because it is. It feels like a giant setback. There is absolutely nothing in here to remotely suggest I could be thinking that women are less rational than men.

> It's like a large part of our women went to a parallel universe "girls school", whereas the men in the mean time learned about science and reasoning.

That's an analogy. Let's assume for a second that I actually literally meant to say that all women go to special girls schools while men are getting the real education (which, again, I am not), then it still means that I assert it's a failure of the education system. So even if you went out of your way to be offended by that analogy, and take it in the most literal meaning possible, it still does not say in any way that women are somehow predisposed for less rationality than men. It does, however, imply the contrary.

This really, really frustrates me - and you have my apologies for the symptoms of this frustration - I'm not sure if words are actually getting across here. Clearly you see something completely different in sentences that are not even remotely similar to your perception. I'm really sorry if I triggered something here, but please do not repost my own position as yours while at the same time asserting that I don't hold it. It's unbelievably rude. And worse, it's a dirty discussion tactic.

Re: It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

#120
post #12

I have a friend who's into homeopathy and such, and I normally keep my mouth shut. But I have done some thinking about why. This friend is very smart, very intellectual, very curious, and not overly credulous. She's really a bit of a nerd. From my few conversations on the matter, the thing that's jumped out at me is this: She's drawn to alternative medicine because it's open source. Like many nerds, she hates closed…

Somewhat to your point, I've found that people arguing alternative vs modern western medicine are often arguing two sides of different issues. Those in favor of modern, evidence based medicine, explain why the scientific method works, and why is superior to superstition. However, those on the other side, having often spent a lot of time among doctors of all types trying to find help for some chronic condition, are ar…

"it is possible to support both sides simultaneously"

It's really not in practice. Skepticism of evidence-based medicine is done through the prism of having bad or not enough medicine. "Alt-med" throws all evidence away but "it works for me". Some emulate studies, but they exist for marketing and potential Federal funding, not for any actual interest in success.

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