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The Perl Renaissance

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Re: The Perl Renaissance

#111

Post by lutusp »

jrockway wrote: post #107
lutusp wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not a fair comparison -- English prose doesn't care how much whitespace appears between words, only that there's more than none. Python definitely cares how much. Don't get me wrong -- I like Python and I use it a lot, but its reliance on syntactically significant whitespace isn't in the plus column.

Try submitting either of our comments to a reputable publication. I doubt the editor will preserve our whitespace. English has well-defined whitespace rules, as does nearly every programming language. Every programming language style guide I've ever read has talked about indentation, so you have to indent according to rules no matter which language you use. Have you ever thought to yourself, "wow, there's no way I'll…

> Try submitting either of our comments to a reputable publication. I doubt the editor will preserve our whitespace.

True, but it's because changing the whitespace doesn't break the prose. But in Python it certainly breaks the code.

> so you have to indent according to rules no matter which language you use.

Sort of. I've written any number of programs in languages that use braces as delimiters, but very lazily, then used a beautifier to fix things up at a keystroke.

I agree with your point that the source must eventually follow accepted formatting, but it's not true that I necessarily need to pay attention to that (as I do in Python).

Some of the better beautifiers even enforce optional style choices, like turning this:

    function_name(variables)
    {
Into this:

    function_name(variables) {
Automatically.

The latter style has pretty much taken over since I started programming 40 years ago, to the degree that I've come to like it.

I emphasize I like Python and I find its advantages far outweigh the whitespace issue on my personal radar.

> Have you ever thought to yourself, "wow, there's no way I'll be able to finish this task on time because I have to indent according to Python's rules"? I'm guessing no.

You're right, but only because my editor automatically manages Python indentations in most cases, so I don't think about it any more.

The one caveat are Python source files that, from time to time and for various reasons, get infested with tabs. Then things get complicated as I try to get rid of the tabs without destroying the program's logic. IMHO tabs should be outlawed.

Re: The Perl Renaissance

#112

Post by PySlice »

eCa wrote: post #110
PySlice wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Python significant white space is just like nudism. At first you think something essential is missing (clothes, curly braces), then you notice that it wasn't really needed at all, and everything becomes freer and simpler.

That is not a good argument among non-nudists :).

That's the funny part :-)

Re: The Perl Renaissance

#113

Post by wazoox »

sylvinus wrote: post #93
wazoox wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't make much sense to me. Let's say if I were interviewed at some place using Java, Python, C and Go, why shouldn't I state my personal language preferences? For most things as an hiring manager I'm OK with people working with their favourite language on whatever project I assign them to (as long as it isn't too esoteric; OCaml is OK, but Haskell is probably pushing it a bit too far, for instance), except w…

Personal language preferences are fine if they are justified by actual reasons like tech details, community, librairies, ...

We'll talk about this Tuesday :) People usually have a very good reason to prefer the language they're more comfortable with, because it makes them more productive. Of course, it could be easy to dispell if some guy insists on writing only assembly, or C++, vs Python. I've known a guy who wrote whole Windows GUIs in assembly, it's pure madness.

There are many valid technical reasons to rather choose C than Python, Java than Perl, or PHP than Go, Erlang rather than C++ ...

But Perl vs Python vs Ruby? Hardly any difference, extremely similar dynamic languages. It's only a matter of personal taste at this point.

Re: The Perl Renaissance

#114

Post by kamaal »

rdtsc wrote: post #95
autarch wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...don't get mad for the question, but: anybody has any arguments for using Python instead of, let's say Ruby, these days? (besides the "I already know it incredibly well" argument) ...cause the lack of an answer to such a question has only one conclusion: the language is dying, even if this is not already happening in a visible way! (don't get me wrong, I'm not a Python hater, and fyi, I think the world would be a m…

> anybody has any arguments for using Python instead of, let's say Ruby, these days Yap. * Better libraries * PyPy * gevent for green thread based concurrency * Cython

Show one single famous language that doesn't have that.

Re: The Perl Renaissance

#115

Post by kamaal »

nnq wrote: post #25
autarch wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...don't get mad for the question, but: anybody has any arguments for using Python instead of, let's say Ruby, these days? (besides the "I already know it incredibly well" argument) ...cause the lack of an answer to such a question has only one conclusion: the language is dying, even if this is not already happening in a visible way! (don't get me wrong, I'm not a Python hater, and fyi, I think the world would be a m…

I get the joke, but there are thousands of people currently learning either Ruby or Python and tons of classes for them, it's incredibly easy to hire either a Python or a Ruby (or PHP or Javascript) programmer and so on... while Perl is slowly falling off the radar.

That thing about Perl is probably being said since the past 12 years and the needle doesn't seem to have the least count distance with regards to that.

People are learning Python? Really? That was probably true in 2006-2009. Python is no longer the new hotness. Scala and Clojure may be.

The fact of the matter is Perl has a massive niche(Text processing, Unicode, CPAN, Regular expressions, Fast prototyping, TIMTOWDI, Ability to add new syntax rapidly[Moose, Devel::Declare etc], Automation, Testing culture, Documentation, Unix, Parsing, Getting things done real fast... I can go on.. but I will stop here), If you look at what Larry Wall has been saying over the years about Perl 6 in various talks you will note that he designed Perl to fill a niche which continues to be totally unoccupied till today's date. The only competitors Perl has in its design space are tools like sed and awk with a additional few Unix utilities thrown around. In other words Perl doesn't have any credible competition. What's more? Any language that is designed to replace Perl will largely look like Perl(Read: Ruby, Perl 6). And yes, Php and Ruby do have their niches.

Python doesn't have a niche. All Python has is- "Tab indent your code." And sorry to break the bad news to you. Merely forcing indentation on a bad programmer doesn't magically transform him to a good programmer. Rather it make the situation more worse. It gives him a free pass to sit amidst good programmers.

Re: The Perl Renaissance

#116

Post by rdtsc »

kamaal wrote: post #114
rdtsc wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> anybody has any arguments for using Python instead of, let's say Ruby, these days Yap. * Better libraries * PyPy * gevent for green thread based concurrency * Cython

Show one single famous language that doesn't have that.

Ruby?

Re: The Perl Renaissance

#117

Post by rdouble »

kamaal wrote: post #115
nnq wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get the joke, but there are thousands of people currently learning either Ruby or Python and tons of classes for them, it's incredibly easy to hire either a Python or a Ruby (or PHP or Javascript) programmer and so on... while Perl is slowly falling off the radar.

That thing about Perl is probably being said since the past 12 years and the needle doesn't seem to have the least count distance with regards to that. People are learning Python? Really? That was probably true in 2006-2009. Python is no longer the new hotness. Scala and Clojure may be. The fact of the matter is Perl has a massive niche(Text processing, Unicode, CPAN, Regular expressions, Fast prototyping, TIMTOWDI,…

Python's niche is that it's a general purpose language that is also good for scientific programming.

Re: The Perl Renaissance

#118

Post by nnq »

kamaal wrote: post #115
nnq wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get the joke, but there are thousands of people currently learning either Ruby or Python and tons of classes for them, it's incredibly easy to hire either a Python or a Ruby (or PHP or Javascript) programmer and so on... while Perl is slowly falling off the radar.

That thing about Perl is probably being said since the past 12 years and the needle doesn't seem to have the least count distance with regards to that. People are learning Python? Really? That was probably true in 2006-2009. Python is no longer the new hotness. Scala and Clojure may be. The fact of the matter is Perl has a massive niche(Text processing, Unicode, CPAN, Regular expressions, Fast prototyping, TIMTOWDI,…

> a niche which continues to be totally unoccupied till today's date

Leaving all about Python aside, what exactly is that niche? I'm not being ironical or anything, I really want an answer to this question, that's why I started this piece of the discussion. Seeing that things like Metasploit, that I would have expected to be written in Perl, end up being coded in Ruby, makes me unable to see any "special niche".

(About what people are learning: indeed we programmers pursue the new hotness, but of people that just started learning how to code, I bet 80% of them are learning Python, Ruby or Javascript, and since this the language they will first learn, this is more likely to become and remain their "go to scripting language" - bar Javascript...).

Re: The Perl Renaissance

#119

Post by nnq »

rdouble wrote: post #117
kamaal wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That thing about Perl is probably being said since the past 12 years and the needle doesn't seem to have the least count distance with regards to that. People are learning Python? Really? That was probably true in 2006-2009. Python is no longer the new hotness. Scala and Clojure may be. The fact of the matter is Perl has a massive niche(Text processing, Unicode, CPAN, Regular expressions, Fast prototyping, TIMTOWDI,…

Python's niche is that it's a general purpose language that is also good for scientific programming.

my theory is that Python ended of being used so much in scientific computing because of what it lacked :) I mean weird stuff that put off "brilliant non-professional programmers" (ie. scientists, engineers and other domain experts that thought themselves how to code). All other languages have tons on these things: Ruby has blocks that make people write functionalish code, Perl has ...tons of weirdness. Python just looked clean and easy to learn and lacked "weird shit" :)

Re: The Perl Renaissance

#120

Post by vorg »

kamaal wrote: post #115
nnq wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get the joke, but there are thousands of people currently learning either Ruby or Python and tons of classes for them, it's incredibly easy to hire either a Python or a Ruby (or PHP or Javascript) programmer and so on... while Perl is slowly falling off the radar.

That thing about Perl is probably being said since the past 12 years and the needle doesn't seem to have the least count distance with regards to that. People are learning Python? Really? That was probably true in 2006-2009. Python is no longer the new hotness. Scala and Clojure may be. The fact of the matter is Perl has a massive niche(Text processing, Unicode, CPAN, Regular expressions, Fast prototyping, TIMTOWDI,…

> All Python has is- "Tab indent your code."

When we use APL, everything is one line long and code doesn't ever need indenting.

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