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Systemd: The Biggest Myths

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Re: Systemd: The Biggest Myths

#111

Post by bkor »

throwaway2048 wrote: post #60
ElliotH wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is that this is a really dated opinion. While I realise that it was really painful for those months, the end result is that audio on Linux seems to work a hell of a lot better these days. By making Linux audio temporarily problematic Linux audio became a solved problem (at least in my mind, and the minds of many users of the major distributions that use it)

Except its not dated at all. I have constant issues with PA randomly failing to do basic things like mixing, or outputting any sound at all on newest code releases. This is still a real problem for people, pretending it isnt and everything is solved and working because it works for you is an incredibly shitty attitude. Stop it. And yes I reported the bugs.

I receive all the bugs for Mageia. I don't notice bugreports for PulseAudio like what you describe. Seems very aggressive to suggest that someone has a "incredibly shitty attitude" just because someone has a different perception.

Re: Systemd: The Biggest Myths

#112

Post by bkor »

fosap wrote: post #108
koide wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the point is that the arguments he made about why dbus is useful (a lightweight IPC mechanism with use cases not covered by UNIX sockets or TCP sockets, doing much more) and why do we need a gnome session on the gdm (to get i18n, network and accessibility features you need most if not all of the session) are well reasoned and make sense to us out of the loop. Could you provide the counterarguments?

Yes. dbus effectively breaks network transparency of x11 apps and turns Linux into a Desktop-Single-User OS. While I'm not regually writing desktop applications i have never ever missed dbus. And ipc mechanisms have a tendency to become unpleasant (Corba, SOAP). I don't have a gnome session in my login manager because I don't need i18n for the words "login" and "password". (although that would be totally possible wit…

Accessibility is actually a requirement in many countries (per law). Obviously not everyone needs it, but just that you do not need it doesn't negate that others do.

Edit: Plus saying X breaks Y so X is not needed is not a good argument. Because you have not addressed if X is needed or not, only said that Y breaks.

Re: Systemd: The Biggest Myths

#113

Post by bkor »

curlypaul924 wrote: post #102
andor wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're stating it as if it were a shortcoming of PulseAudio. PA is inadequate for most audio work, because the latency is too high -- which is a feature . Latency vs. CPU usage is always a compromise. To achieve low latency, you need very small buffers for "rendered" audio, and lots of well-timed copy operations to the audio hardware. To just play some audio files efficiently, you want large buffers, because then few…

I don't see how high latency in pulseaudio is a feature. Pulseaudio has both high latency and high cpu usage. I've seen cpu usage by the pulseaudio daemon as high as 20% when playing audio.

That was the case many years ago. You really still have this?!?

Re: Systemd: The Biggest Myths

#114

Post by bkor »

fosap wrote: post #72
ElliotH wrote: post #55

Benefits to me as a desktop and laptop user of systemd. 1) Speed does matter. Fast boots are good. 2) The new journal is just better. Finding something in the logs is easier. 3) Service files are easier to write than init scripts and one can have more confidence they will work as intended as you need write very little configuration oneself. 4) Knowledge of dependencies means I never have to worry about starting dbus…

>I remember the same complaints with PulseAudio. And this is perfectly the reason number two why i won't switch to systemd (reason number one is there is no need for it). PulseAudio does not work. It sucks. The irc channel is full of clueless (but trying to be helpfull) people. And nobody cares. I want my Alsa back. But now it's too late, i hope systemd will either be better (doubt it) or never be this popular. And,…

PulseAudio works perfectly fine for me. It did have issues in the beginning, but for many years I didn't have a problem. You said elsewhere that you had issues, but that you still have issues I can see. Others, could be, no idea.

But I don't have any issues. I don't have high CPU usage. It just plain works since various years.

Re: Systemd: The Biggest Myths

#115

Post by delinka »

bkor wrote: post #109
delinka wrote: post #71

6. Myth: systemd is not modular. Not true at all. At compile time you have a number of ... So it's only modular at compile time. This seems like a negative to me.

You can also disable various things during runtime. A->B does not imply B->A.

It's not assumption by implication, it's due to omission. I cannot assume a feature exists in your software, you must tell me it exists. As a contrived example, why would I expect your To Do List app to manage recipes?

Re: Systemd: The Biggest Myths

#116

Post by throwaway2048 »

bkor wrote: post #111
throwaway2048 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except its not dated at all. I have constant issues with PA randomly failing to do basic things like mixing, or outputting any sound at all on newest code releases. This is still a real problem for people, pretending it isnt and everything is solved and working because it works for you is an incredibly shitty attitude. Stop it. And yes I reported the bugs.

I receive all the bugs for Mageia. I don't notice bugreports for PulseAudio like what you describe. Seems very aggressive to suggest that someone has a "incredibly shitty attitude" just because someone has a different perception.

it's rather frustrating to be continuously told your problems don't exist because they aren't a problem for somebody else.

Re: Systemd: The Biggest Myths

#117

Post by fosap »

bkor wrote: post #112
fosap wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. dbus effectively breaks network transparency of x11 apps and turns Linux into a Desktop-Single-User OS. While I'm not regually writing desktop applications i have never ever missed dbus. And ipc mechanisms have a tendency to become unpleasant (Corba, SOAP). I don't have a gnome session in my login manager because I don't need i18n for the words "login" and "password". (although that would be totally possible wit…

Accessibility is actually a requirement in many countries (per law). Obviously not everyone needs it, but just that you do not need it doesn't negate that others do. Edit: Plus saying X breaks Y so X is not needed is not a good argument. Because you have not addressed if X is needed or not, only said that Y breaks.

I have no idear how "accessibility" is defined. I'd say getty is quite accessible, but well, I don't know, I never relied on it. But yet, that is no excuse to start a hole desktop. Just like a program can use gtk (theoretically) without a gnome desktop it should be able to do the same with for a braille display.

I think I can safely say that if X breaks Y, and I need Y than X sucks. Especially if it worked before X came. X made things worse.

/edit: I think that's why Poettering is hated so much. There was community on the Nixes, with their own ecosystem and their own way to do stuff. It's wasn't always beautiful or nice, but their had their way to solve stuff so it would a kind of blend in with the rest. And then Poettering wants to turn it into MacOS X or Windows and adds stuff new users probably appreciate, but the old users never misses. There is a cultural shock. And then it breaks backwards compatibility. It shouldn't suprise anybody that this product should rather be superb and not just medicore to accepted.

Re: Systemd: The Biggest Myths

#118

Post by curlypaul924 »

bkor wrote: post #113
curlypaul924 wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how high latency in pulseaudio is a feature. Pulseaudio has both high latency and high cpu usage. I've seen cpu usage by the pulseaudio daemon as high as 20% when playing audio.

That was the case many years ago. You really still have this?!?

Yes I do, on pulseaudio 1.1. Definitely better than it used to be, though.
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