Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I'm not sure why systemd not being portable to other operating systems is suddenly a big deal. Because software being written that has systemd as a dependency will be Linux only software.
> Because software being written that has systemd as a dependency will be Linux only software. And this is news, and suddenly it's systemd's fault? If you hate Linux-only software, software that depends on systemd is the last of your problems. Software that depends on glibc and the Linux kernel are probable the main offenders.
Systemd: The Biggest Myths
51–60 of 118 posts
Re: Systemd: The Biggest Myths
#523. I don't understand the desire to trim seconds off of boot-up time (even assuming that systemd does this; it didn't for me). The goal should be to restart less often, not to restart more quickly. 5. The systemd documentation is indeed very good, and that's probably one of the biggest drivers behind its adoption. However, it is also difficult. A big part of the pushback from people over systemd is that it also repla…
> The goal should be to restart less often, not to restart more quickly. No! These are not mutually exclusive. The goal should be to restart less ofter, but restart faster when it is necessary. Systems have to restart. Well run/maintained/designed systems may not need to restart ofter, but they do need to restart. Consider: Many moons ago I was responsible for (among other things) the company's CRM systems. These wer…
Re: Systemd: The Biggest Myths
#53I don't want systemd because I don't trust Lennart Poettering to be able to write reliable code.
Have you reviewed Systemd code and submit changes to make it more reliable?
Re: Systemd: The Biggest Myths
#54Earlier quoted context omitted.
"Most of the stuff he made is really nice, proven by the fact that it's being used widely without issues." Without issues? PulseAudio is loaded with issues. The only time PA works correctly is when you are doing things the way Lennart thinks you should do them -- which is basically the way desktop Windows and Mac OS X users are expected to do things. Another way to put things is this: Lennart's software designs dicta…
Pulse Audio is not perfect but what before was. People were bitching about PA and wanted OSS back. I seriously doubt that many of those actually do anything reasonable with audio.
So in a sense, you are right: PA is not perfect, and neither were ALSA, OSS, and other earlier approaches. That is not the issue; the issue is, is PA actually better? Are we actually able to do things now that we were having trouble with before? From where I sit, PA makes it easier to use things like D-BUS and various "Kit" systems to duplicate the desktop user paradigm you see in Windows or Mac OS X, and nothing more (and that does nothing for me, but certainly gets in my way when I try to do things like multiseat setups).
Re: Systemd: The Biggest Myths
#551) Speed does matter. Fast boots are good. 2) The new journal is just better. Finding something in the logs is easier. 3) Service files are easier to write than init scripts and one can have more confidence they will work as intended as you need write very little configuration oneself. 4) Knowledge of dependencies means I never have to worry about starting dbus before gdm. It just does what is necessary to do the correct thing.
I personally want all of those things. I am really happy they came to Arch and Fedora. They both feel much more modern for it. Working on systems that use older init systems now feels archaic.
Let's move with the times. I remember the same set of complaints when we got NetworkManager. I remember the same complaints with PulseAudio.
Guess what? I now have systems with excellent networking and excellent sound.
Re: Systemd: The Biggest Myths
#56Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The goal should be to restart less often, not to restart more quickly. No! These are not mutually exclusive. The goal should be to restart less ofter, but restart faster when it is necessary. Systems have to restart. Well run/maintained/designed systems may not need to restart ofter, but they do need to restart. Consider: Many moons ago I was responsible for (among other things) the company's CRM systems. These wer…
Sure, but given that developer time is a bounded resource, we can't really expect to get both fewer restarts and faster restarts. I sympathize with your example, but I would expect that you had already seriously optimized your startup process, and since systemd doesn't make services start more quickly (it only does a better job of parallelizing them), I doubt that it would have made a huge difference in your case. As…
Your're going to have to clarify, as this statement doesn't make any sense.
You're right though. In this instance, system startup was already highly optimized. In fact, the order of startup was shifted around to get Oracle (the DB in this example) up and operational as early as possible.
On the other hand, with the introduction of SMF, that "need to optimise" largely went away. Sure, SMF didn't make much a difference in this particular instance, but parallelisation does make a difference when you're talking about total system (not service) startup time. Further it can make a difference on system that run multiple services. If 5 services have the same dependency set, then a parallel startup means that services 2-5 become available earlier versus a linear startup.
Finally, shaving 5 seconds off of service startup _does_ make a difference. While the above example means $350, there's a few things to consider.
1) a $350 loss is stil a loss. From a business perspective, a loss, no matter how small, is still to be avoided. There's other considerations as well, such as the impact of the extra 5 seconds on my budget (the SLAs mean that the loss comes out of my budget).
2) In the realm of big enterprise, this is a relatively small outage cost. In fact, I've managed system with an order of magnitude larger failure cost (SLAs are bitch).
3) It's difficult to factor soft costs. Things such as customer confidence, indirect productivity loss, etc. 5 seconds, again, means services are available sooner, lessening the impact of these soft, and difficult to quantify, costs.
Re: Systemd: The Biggest Myths
#57Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why the heck do people whale on him so much?
One reason is that pulseaudio broke audio for many Linux users (including me). Linux audio has long been problematic but had reached a point of stability when pulseaudio was adopted by some of the major distributions. I have no idea if the problem was that pulseaudio was broken, with distributors messing up, or with Linux audio drivers. When a problem is easily solved by just an "apt-get remove X" it is easy to start…
By making Linux audio temporarily problematic Linux audio became a solved problem (at least in my mind, and the minds of many users of the major distributions that use it)
Re: Systemd: The Biggest Myths
#58Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The goal should be to restart less often, not to restart more quickly. No! These are not mutually exclusive. The goal should be to restart less ofter, but restart faster when it is necessary. Systems have to restart. Well run/maintained/designed systems may not need to restart ofter, but they do need to restart. Consider: Many moons ago I was responsible for (among other things) the company's CRM systems. These wer…
While start up time is critical, how much time is being lost by imposing complexity on the humans? At least in my opinion that bit about binary logs makes the entire thing a no go. The absolute last thing I want in any sort of time critical situation is to complicate the process of reading logs.
My assessment on the systemd debate, though, is that it feels a bit like neophobia and the technical justifications (against systemd) are a bit on the weak side.
Re: Systemd: The Biggest Myths
#59Earlier quoted context omitted.
Downvoting this post is unwarranted. Everything that Lennart Poettering has ever done was an unreliable clusterfuck[1] astray from the Unix philosphy. There's nothing that he has ever done that is considered "good" by a majority of Unix-derivative users. [1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTdUmlGxVo0
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTdUmlGxVo0 Poettering has clearly the better arguments than this reactionary Draxinger die-hard.
Re: Systemd: The Biggest Myths
#60Earlier quoted context omitted.
One reason is that pulseaudio broke audio for many Linux users (including me). Linux audio has long been problematic but had reached a point of stability when pulseaudio was adopted by some of the major distributions. I have no idea if the problem was that pulseaudio was broken, with distributors messing up, or with Linux audio drivers. When a problem is easily solved by just an "apt-get remove X" it is easy to start…
The thing is that this is a really dated opinion. While I realise that it was really painful for those months, the end result is that audio on Linux seems to work a hell of a lot better these days. By making Linux audio temporarily problematic Linux audio became a solved problem (at least in my mind, and the minds of many users of the major distributions that use it)
Stop it.
And yes I reported the bugs.