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European ISPs Want Rightsholders Held Accountable for Overblocking Damage

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Re: European ISPs Want Rightsholders Held Accountable for Overblocking Damage

#111
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> all porn watchers That doesn’t follow, you wouldn’t need to track non CP content to track people downloading CP. YouTube doesn’t want legal porn on its servers, and I suspect most porn websites aren’t going to want CP either especially if it makes collecting revenue illegal as per the second part of my post. Thus whatever is currently being used would likely to continue to be used.

> you wouldn’t need to track non CP content to track people downloading CP. May be not, but you need to be able to track down CP content viewers. How can you identify them without identifiable info of all porn watchers? What if someone accidentally clicks on such a piece. How long should they be viewing it to be considered a violator?

The content itself provides a sorting mechanism.

You go to the grocery store and you can buy most things without showing ID, but you want to get booze and suddenly you need to verify your identity.

> accidentally clicks on such a piece

I’m playing devils advocate here not trying to design a better system. What’s the tradeoff of treating a single download as serious vs having a higher threshold? Perhaps a single click is reason enough to ban someone from ever teaching in public schools, perhaps you could keep a list but someone could get due process to remove themselves from the list, I don’t have a strong opinion at this point.

Re: European ISPs Want Rightsholders Held Accountable for Overblocking Damage

#112
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Arguing the "cost of the damage done" will ultimately require lawyers

Sure. But ultimately, the right fix would be to give time for counter-notice before taking the content down.

Not really, no. The current kerfuffle is primarily over illegal streaming of live sports. The blocks need to be in place very rapidly to have any effect.

Some governments have given rightsholders the ability to order IPs blocked at short notice, and they've caused a lot of collateral damage, making thousands of unrelated sites unreachable.

Re: European ISPs Want Rightsholders Held Accountable for Overblocking Damage

#113
post #38

It's not just Europe. DMCA takedowns in the US: no liability for taking down innocent content. Really, it comes down to this: censorship is bad. Always. If someone violates the law, get a court judgement. With the judgement in hand, take down that specific material. Too much work? Tough...

> It's not just Europe. DMCA takedowns in the US: no liability for taking down innocent content. Isn't it under penalty of purjury?

Oh no, the only part under penalty of perjury is the complaining party misrepresenting their authorisation by the rights holder (17 USC § 512(c)(3)(A)(iv)).

So if you DMCA HN, claiming that this thread infringes on Moana the possible perjury would be for claiming to represent Disney.

Now in theory the content claims are made under the good faith standard (17 USC § 512(c)(3)(A)(v)), and in theory the complaining party could be held for damages, but in practice getting ahold of the complainant is very hard, and suing them for damage is often worse than the actual damage.

Re: European ISPs Want Rightsholders Held Accountable for Overblocking Damage

#114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. But ultimately, the right fix would be to give time for counter-notice before taking the content down.

Not really, no. The current kerfuffle is primarily over illegal streaming of live sports. The blocks need to be in place very rapidly to have any effect. Some governments have given rightsholders the ability to order IPs blocked at short notice, and they've caused a lot of collateral damage, making thousands of unrelated sites unreachable.

> Not really, no. The current kerfuffle is primarily over illegal streaming of live sports. The blocks need to be in place very rapidly to have any effect.

They really don't. As has been repeatedly rediscovered in a thousand other cases: 1) a modest amount of friction will make most people not do it, 2) you will never stop everyone, and collateral damage will be too high ("the optimal amount of fraud is not zero", https://www.bitsaboutmoney.com/archive/optimal-amount-of-fra... ), and 3) "piracy is a service problem".

Some of the most effective mechanisms in history for shifting people away from copyright infringement have been iTunes and Netflix. Everything on both is readily available for free, but people for the most part don't. And when they do, more often than not it's a service problem: "use this offline", "take a screenshot for commentary", "they took the content down and now it's not available anywhere", "not available at all in some regions of the world".

Re: European ISPs Want Rightsholders Held Accountable for Overblocking Damage

#115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also due to Cloudflare intentionally not policing its customers even a little bit, but i still side with CF - they're the less bad guys.

“Policing its customers” what do you want cloud-flair to do?

Cloudflare has proven quite capable of taking down customers before once they got bad news coverage for the sites they provided service to.

Re: European ISPs Want Rightsholders Held Accountable for Overblocking Damage

#116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also due to Cloudflare intentionally not policing its customers even a little bit, but i still side with CF - they're the less bad guys.

I think for Cloudflare it's both an obvious slippery slope - like, this isn't one of those dubious analogies where there seems to be an obvious bright line and the slippery slope argument seems far-fetched, the incredulity of non-soccer fans when the Spain situation is explained tells you everything you need to know. And it's just technically much easier to not do this. If you do this, and somebody else doesn't they'…

> La Liga itself, is this considered like holy the way football is

definitely not. for most fans its someone who takes sides against their team and makes a lot of controversial calls when its comes to issuing fines and bans. there is corruption like the negreira affair but its not close to fifa level.

Re: European ISPs Want Rightsholders Held Accountable for Overblocking Damage

#117

It's not just Europe. DMCA takedowns in the US: no liability for taking down innocent content. Really, it comes down to this: censorship is bad. Always. If someone violates the law, get a court judgement. With the judgement in hand, take down that specific material. Too much work? Tough...

Serious question, what would the ramifications of an economic solution? If you appeal content removal and your challenge is validated, the platform then applies a financial penalty to the requester? It would reduce drastically the amounts of request and thus false positives?

Unfortunately the group that has the most control doesn't care.

The majority of anything around DMCA is likely legitimate complaints so dealing with it is weird, since making it more painful for content producers to protect themselves is unpopular.

Especially since you would need a bond system and penalties beyond actual damages (such as legal fees) since most of the worst cases have very nebulous actual damages.

Re: European ISPs Want Rightsholders Held Accountable for Overblocking Damage

#118
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, somehow small towns always find money available for soccer related stuff (like building stadiums, events, etc.) but there is no money for improving healthcare or building parks. I mean Texas can hold a candle there. Nearly 30 high school football stadiums with 10,000+ capacity (and 20,000 in a few cases), built for amounts sometimes exceeding $50M each. Some of the stadiums are shared with track and field etc…

That’s crazy, in the Netherlands (though about 16x smaller than Texas) the 10 biggest stadiums in the country are Football (soccer) stadiums ranging from 10400 capacity at #10 to about 56000 capacity for the #1 stadium (build for 130 million euro). All at the highest paid level of professional football. 30 _high school_ stadiums at 10000+ I can’t even fathom!

Where do they even find 300,000 people to watch high school football each week.

The big high school sports games here in the UK get the parents, at least of most of the kids playing.

Do non-sports events get massive following from non-parents -- school plays for example?

Still the US tax payer is an infinite gold mine I guess. Local football teams in the UK tend to pay for their own stadiums

Re: European ISPs Want Rightsholders Held Accountable for Overblocking Damage

#119

It's not just Europe. DMCA takedowns in the US: no liability for taking down innocent content. Really, it comes down to this: censorship is bad. Always. If someone violates the law, get a court judgement. With the judgement in hand, take down that specific material. Too much work? Tough...

> Too much work? Tough... Making justice available only to people with monetary (and in US courts at least, wealth is a strong predictor of outcome) and other relevant resources is not the kind of thing that I want society getting worse on. DMCA enforcement of copyright is thus fundamentally a good law, and in my opinion should only be tweaked to deal with the pathological cases on platforms like YouTube, and even mo…

> A few dollars per false claim seems like a good starting point to consider from.

A nominal fee to lodge a claim seems more practical. No courts, no lawyers, just a government web form that pay for itself. It won't stop vexatious claims, but it will stop mass speculative Hail Mary's.

Re: European ISPs Want Rightsholders Held Accountable for Overblocking Damage

#120

It's not just Europe. DMCA takedowns in the US: no liability for taking down innocent content. Really, it comes down to this: censorship is bad. Always. If someone violates the law, get a court judgement. With the judgement in hand, take down that specific material. Too much work? Tough...

> Too much work? Tough... Making justice available only to people with monetary (and in US courts at least, wealth is a strong predictor of outcome) and other relevant resources is not the kind of thing that I want society getting worse on. DMCA enforcement of copyright is thus fundamentally a good law, and in my opinion should only be tweaked to deal with the pathological cases on platforms like YouTube, and even mo…

What does it actually cost to get a court order for something so trivial?
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