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Maryland citizens hit with $2B power grid upgrade for out-of-state AI

tomshardware.com

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Re: Maryland citizens hit with $2B power grid upgrade for out-of-state AI

#111

Post by rockskon »

JuniperMesos wrote: post #61
rockskon wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Somehow I don't see arguments comparing powering AI with producing food to go over well with them. Many opponents to AI do not view the tech as having a net benefit. Comparing it to food production would serve to make you look more the fool to them despite their claims about water consumption frequently being wacky.

Right; anti-data-center sentiment is really a way of attacking AI as a technology; arguments about the water or power use of data centers are just an excuse.

Well, to be fair, the public has been going through a multi-year forced beta-test of AI all while CEOs keep going on national television and posting on social media how there will be mass unemployment because of AI. To say nothing of all the companies that have (and soon will) close up shop due to increased prices from the global memory shortage unrelated to the proclaimed job-replacing benefits of AI.

And let's not forget many of the remaining independent websites on the Internet closing up shop due to being unable to afford the substantial increase in hosting costs resulting from aggressive scrapers getting data to keep training AI on.

Or the massive improvement in bots and click-fraud due to AI, pushing an increasing number of companies to embrace heinous practices such as mandatory facial recognition for users to be allowed to engage in socialization.

Or the increased electricity prices already realized around much of the country due to AI both so much of the existing grid's supply and requiring expensive upgrades to the infrastructure - the latter of which is frequently paid for by taxpayers.

All for the wondrous promises of unproven future capabilities.

The real mystery to me is how it's a mystery to so many people why there's a large and enduring anti-AI sentiment.

Re: Maryland citizens hit with $2B power grid upgrade for out-of-state AI

#112

Post by ip26 »

claw-el wrote: post #99
derf_ wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why are more and more utility providers charge based on ‘infrastructure cost’ or ‘fixed platform fee’ instead of usage fee? Because unlike many commodities, electricity, once generated, is hard to store, yet supply must match demand in real time. You need to meet peak demand, even if normal usage is not as high. If you pay purely for usage, that might not send enough price signals to ensure that you have the necess…

Hmmm, if you take a brick and mortar store, they have fixed costs to renovate and decorate the store, and they likely have capacity of the store that is not used during non-peak period as well. They charge for item sold, to cover for all costs they incurred for capacity of the store even during non-peak period as well. Is this an equivalent comparison? Don’t businesses generally roll in the fixed costs into their pri…

Are you familiar with why movie theaters offer matinee tickets at a lower price?

Re: Maryland citizens hit with $2B power grid upgrade for out-of-state AI

#113

Post by 1shooner »

UqWBcuFx6NV4r wrote: post #29
timmg wrote: post #25

It's not clear from the article whether this is just datacenters -- or if that is just the convenient boogeyman. The grid operator for the northeast, according to my Governor, has been well-behind in building out infrastructure. Of course new datacenters cause more load. But so do new houses (we're building as many as we can) and electric cars, etc.

There is so much FUD going around SPECIFICALLY about data centers lately, that i’m dubious of anything i hear. it’s such a weird cultural phenomenon. Chronically online teenagers on Instagram making increasingly incorrect and absurd-sounding claims about water / energy usage. Comparatively barely anyone knew what a data center was 1-2 years ago.

Would you believe NERC?

https://www.nerc.com/newsroom/nerc-issues-level-3-alert-reli...

Re: Maryland citizens hit with $2B power grid upgrade for out-of-state AI

#114

Post by jonhohle »

idontwantthis wrote: post #60
anonymousiam wrote: post #28

It seems that big money can overrule local government regulators at will. Here in Nevada, (Warran Buffet owned) NV Energy already has approval for a "Demand Charge" that will increase rates for everyone, and further reduce the ridiculously low amount of money that consumers get for selling their excess solar power back to the grid. The regulators didn't even resist, but there has now been so much backlash that they'r…

It’s not clear to me that the demand charge will cause bills to increase at all and, on its face, it makes sense to charge separately for peak power consumption as well as total energy consumption.

As someone with a demand charge, let me disagree. The worst single hour out of 60-70 throughout the month is used and in my market it’s about $19/kw demand. Turn on the AC once during that period, $80. Happen to have to have an oven or microwave going at the same time, you’re probably over $100. For one hour on one day of the month. Once you screw your month, you’re free to do it the rest of the month, but it only takes once.

Re: Maryland citizens hit with $2B power grid upgrade for out-of-state AI

#115

Post by GorbachevyChase »

morkalork wrote: post #20
Avshalom wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

because as part of their legal monopolies they are only allowed to charge a "reasonable" usage fee. ETA: utility companies make profit on capex, not opex

Perhaps utilities should be state owned where any profits are used to offset the tax load on the citizens..

They basically are. It really isn’t anything resembling an open market. They are effectively extensions of the state that happen to be funded by user fees rather than general funds.

Re: Maryland citizens hit with $2B power grid upgrade for out-of-state AI

#116

Post by hackable_sand »

tempaccount5050 wrote: post #30
UqWBcuFx6NV4r wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is so much FUD going around SPECIFICALLY about data centers lately, that i’m dubious of anything i hear. it’s such a weird cultural phenomenon. Chronically online teenagers on Instagram making increasingly incorrect and absurd-sounding claims about water / energy usage. Comparatively barely anyone knew what a data center was 1-2 years ago.

Yep. 10000 gallons per query, spews out toxic water, contaminates the water supply, uses more power than an entire state, and on and on. I'm convinced it's a psyop to prevent the US's progress in tech. It's so over the top crazy and obviously false, but everyone I know is falling for it.

Common parlance is "own goal"

Re: Maryland citizens hit with $2B power grid upgrade for out-of-state AI

#117

Post by hackable_sand »

UqWBcuFx6NV4r wrote: post #29
timmg wrote: post #25

It's not clear from the article whether this is just datacenters -- or if that is just the convenient boogeyman. The grid operator for the northeast, according to my Governor, has been well-behind in building out infrastructure. Of course new datacenters cause more load. But so do new houses (we're building as many as we can) and electric cars, etc.

There is so much FUD going around SPECIFICALLY about data centers lately, that i’m dubious of anything i hear. it’s such a weird cultural phenomenon. Chronically online teenagers on Instagram making increasingly incorrect and absurd-sounding claims about water / energy usage. Comparatively barely anyone knew what a data center was 1-2 years ago.

It's not weird at all. Go outside.

Re: Maryland citizens hit with $2B power grid upgrade for out-of-state AI

#118

Post by FuckButtons »

timmg wrote: post #25

It's not clear from the article whether this is just datacenters -- or if that is just the convenient boogeyman. The grid operator for the northeast, according to my Governor, has been well-behind in building out infrastructure. Of course new datacenters cause more load. But so do new houses (we're building as many as we can) and electric cars, etc.

Electricity usage in N.America / Europe has been static for the last ~20 years.

Re: Maryland citizens hit with $2B power grid upgrade for out-of-state AI

#119

Post by deaux »

trollbridge wrote: post #86
vjvjvjvjghv wrote: post #40

Maybe the AI guys should use the AI first to develop fusion reactors they can then use to power the data centers. I honestly think they should pay fully for the infrastructure that provides power for them. It's not fair to have regular users pay for this.

If they have to pay for all the infrastructure themselves, the current financing model does not pencil out.

Then they go bust, and competitors who priced this in and have a better financing model end up the winners who take the market. Thought that was the free market capitalism that the US prided itself on?

Re: Maryland citizens hit with $2B power grid upgrade for out-of-state AI

#120

Post by idontwantthis »

jonhohle wrote: post #114
idontwantthis wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not clear to me that the demand charge will cause bills to increase at all and, on its face, it makes sense to charge separately for peak power consumption as well as total energy consumption.

As someone with a demand charge, let me disagree. The worst single hour out of 60-70 throughout the month is used and in my market it’s about $19/kw demand. Turn on the AC once during that period, $80. Happen to have to have an oven or microwave going at the same time, you’re probably over $100. For one hour on one day of the month. Once you screw your month, you’re free to do it the rest of the month, but it only ta…

What you have described is an obviously terrible system that doesn’t incentivize lower power consumption.

That’s not how it’s going to work in Nevada. It will be the highest 15 minute period of each day, so if you spread out your power usage you have room to game the rates and save money. And if you have a bad day it will only cost you a dollar or two and the next day is fresh.

Plus it’s not on top of the total consumption. The consumption rate is getting cut so that people should be paying roughly the same amount as before.

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