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End of Japanese community

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Re: End of Japanese community

#111

Post by humanlity »

pnathan wrote: post #99
ezoe wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once your work is published under Creative Commons license, it is irreversible. No matter you have a copyright or not. You can't undo it the fact at one point you published your work in one of Creative Commons license(there are multiple incompatible Creative Commons licenses so it's bit complicated). You can make updated version of your work to non-CC, but the version you published under CC is CC.

I would be curious if that is how Japanese courts would view it. They may not consider that a valid way. Or they might. But different jurisdictions vary.

[dead]

Re: End of Japanese community

#112

Post by radium3d »

pnathan wrote: post #99
ezoe wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once your work is published under Creative Commons license, it is irreversible. No matter you have a copyright or not. You can't undo it the fact at one point you published your work in one of Creative Commons license(there are multiple incompatible Creative Commons licenses so it's bit complicated). You can make updated version of your work to non-CC, but the version you published under CC is CC.

I would be curious if that is how Japanese courts would view it. They may not consider that a valid way. Or they might. But different jurisdictions vary.

You need to think hard and understand that it is irreversible before you publish your content under certain licenses.

My problem with this type of gate keeping is that machine learning does open up translations that are accurate to the masses. It is quaint having a real human do your translations though. Kind of like having a real human drive your car or do your housework. Not everyone can afford that luxury. But, on the other hand, having a singular organization own the training data and the model and not publishing the model itself is where the gatekeeping continues.

Re: End of Japanese community

#113

Post by jogu »

krick wrote: post #96
jogu wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hence why I said "from my read". This is how I view the situation, and why the lead is reacting the way they are. > They are often trying to put machine translations in where there are no translations, though. And at what point are all of the translations done by machines and the work the community is doing no longer needed? At the very least, the nature of their work will change and I think they're not interested in…

(Unlike GP) I don't actually have a problem with your assumptions. They seem likely to me. But I still have a problem with the whole sentiment of, uh, people on your side of the discussion. Let's just assume it is how you say it is. (The only assumption I am not willing to make is that people at Mozilla are already convinced it was a bad idea after all.) What in your opinion would be the right move now , after they r…

I'm not sure if just this individual is upset, or if he's speaking on behalf of the entire community he's the leader of.

I think it's clear that Mozilla wants machine translation to take a bigger role in producing localized content, and this new process will be a large shift in the way things have been done. I think it's fair for Mozilla to do this, but I also think it's fair for the maintainer to be upset with this decision and no longer want to volunteer his time to clean up slop.

The initial response feels premature and tone deaf which is why people are irked by it.

Given that Mozilla "shot first" so to speak, the onus is on them to take action first e.g. disable the bot, revert changes to articles, etc. Only after doing this can discussion on a path forward happen.

Re: End of Japanese community

#114

Post by handoflixue »

crazygringo wrote: post #58
rileymat2 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But he lists the problems? Pretty unambiguously.

The problems are nowhere near actionable. A lot more information is needed. E.g. literally the first bullet: "It doesn't follow our translation guidelines". OK -- where are those guidelines? Is there a way to get it to follow them, like another commenter says works? Does the person need help following the process for that? Or is there a bug? Etc. These are the things a call can clarify. It's the necessary first step,…

> where are those guidelines?

It's entirely possible that such information is well-known to everyone involved in the translation community.

I would consider it outright insulting if someone who ostensibly "wants to help" doesn't know basic information like that - if the people making decisions about SumoBot are NOT aware of basic information like "where to find the local translation guidelines" then they are presumably not qualified to release a tool like SumoBot in the first place.

Re: End of Japanese community

#115

Post by sersi »

jogu wrote: post #57
gyomu wrote: post #18

As a multilingual/multicultural human it’s been pretty weird witnessing what AI translation has been doing to regional languages & cultures on the internet in the last few years. Sure we had machine translation before, but it was still a little off. Now the latest language models get us 99.9% there, so they are judged good enough to deploy at scale. What results is a weird twilight zone where everything is in your la…

I've really disliked Reddit's auto-translation. I'm bilingual (English & Japanese) and when I search for things only to get an auto-translated reddit thread it really is bizarre. The references, flow of the conversation, etc. are all just off and it feels weird.

I really hate it too especially when I want to search something specifically within the French context and I end up getting pages translated from Englsh to French and waste my time on irrelevant content.

Re: End of Japanese community

#116

Post by iAMkenough »

jahsome wrote: post #10

I'm not really able to understand the finer details but I think I picked up enough to get the broad strokes. Really though, all I needed to see was the phrase "jump on a quick call" to form an irrationally strong opinion. That phrase instantly warms my entire body with rage.

I also agree. For me it was “sorry for how you and the Japanese community feel…”

“Sorry for your feelings” comes off as dismissive and avoiding taking ownership for the lost work and years of volunteer contributions.

Re: End of Japanese community

#117

Post by rtpg »

crazygringo wrote: post #106
rtpg wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I'm sorry for how you and the Japanese community feel about the MT workflow that we just recently introduced. Would you be interested to hop on a call with us to talk about this further? We want to make sure we trully understand what you're struggling with. - No apology - No "we stopped the bot for now" "We're sorry for how you feel" is enterprise for "we think you're whining". Maybe not what the person meant but ho…

> - No apology - No "we stopped the bot for now" "We're sorry for how you feel" is enterprise for "we think you're whining". Anyways the point is just that one side of this relationship here clearly cares about the problem way less, and _even when presented with that fact_, does not even pretend to be actually sorry for the damage they are causing. This is just a single initial reply from a "community support manager…

CS comms are tricky, I agree! You have to reply to stuff, often before you have any form of full picture. Just think you gotta be careful then, and the message they posted was not good on that front.

I do get what you're saying, and it's not like I think the CSM should be fired for the message. I just think it's bad comms.

Here are some alternative choices:

- post nothing, figure out more internally (community support is also about vouching for people!)

- post something more personal like "Thank you for posting this. I'm looking into who is working on this bot to get this information in front of them". Perhaps not allowed by Mozilla's policies

- Do some DMing (again, more personal, allowing for something direct)

But to your point... it's one person's message, and on both sides these are likely people where English isn't their native language. I'm assuming that community support managers are paid roles at mozilla, but maybe not.

And like... yeah, at one point you go into whatever company chat and you start barking up the chain. That's the work

Re: End of Japanese community

#118

Post by mkagenius »

davidclark wrote: post #38
chao- wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am fascinated by the nuanced opinions people have about word choice. What phrase would you use to ask someone to discuss a matter, but which you feel would be more appropriate for this kind of situation?

My guess would be the anger comes from implication that is a possible solution at all. This type of “hop on a call” request is not usually actually designed to “truly understand what you're struggling with.” (words from the post) Instead it is usually a PR tactic. The goal of the call requester is to get your acquiescence. Most people are less likely to be confrontational and stand up for themselves when presented wi…

Are we reading too much into one sentence? HN comments dese days

Re: End of Japanese community

#119

Post by jack1243star »

netsharc wrote: post #110
Waterluvian wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not sure those who speak like that are equipped to understand how offensive their words and tone can be. It suggests a decision can be reversed with a quick call, which questions one’s choices or conviction. As if to suggest the choice was made without considerable thought and care. It’s such an unserious tone to a moment that’s very serious to the other.

The first sentence of the top reply ("quick call") was already cunty: > I'm sorry for how you and the Japanese community feel ... That may seem like an apology, but it's more a dismissing their issue as "that's a you problem".

To give them the benefit of doubt, English may not be their first language, so they might not be aware of the implication this comment gives.

It would be such irony if they asked GPT to reword it to a more polite tone though...

Re: End of Japanese community

#120

Post by petre »

krick wrote: post #96
jogu wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hence why I said "from my read". This is how I view the situation, and why the lead is reacting the way they are. > They are often trying to put machine translations in where there are no translations, though. And at what point are all of the translations done by machines and the work the community is doing no longer needed? At the very least, the nature of their work will change and I think they're not interested in…

(Unlike GP) I don't actually have a problem with your assumptions. They seem likely to me. But I still have a problem with the whole sentiment of, uh, people on your side of the discussion. Let's just assume it is how you say it is. (The only assumption I am not willing to make is that people at Mozilla are already convinced it was a bad idea after all.) What in your opinion would be the right move now , after they r…

> What in your opinion would be the right move now, after they rolled this bullshit auto-translator out and pissed off a lot of people in the community

In Japan? Sincere appology followed by resignation.

No, the Japanese absolutely do not set up a call to discuss things after you've scerwed and disrespected them. They respectfully give you the cold shoulder.

Mozilla should not be surprised if their market share dwindles in Japan after this.

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