Live data from Hacker News

SpaceX wins $440M contract with NASA to develop Space Shuttle successor

spaceflightnow.com

111–120 of 188 posts

Re: SpaceX wins $440M contract with NASA to develop Space Shuttle successor

#111
post #73
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Safety isn't as much determined by your aspirations, as it is by your record. 37% failure is an acceptable milestone considering all the SpaceX has achieved in its short lifetime, but I doubt would satisfy NASA's safety regulations for human spaceflight.

Not counting their initial failures, SpaceX has had a 100% success rate. And each rocket was so significantly different from the previous rocket[1], that it's more fair to say they had 3 rocket models with 100% failure, rather than one model with 60% failure rate. And the Falcon 9 has a 100% success rate. And they were awarded this contract, so obviously NASA believes they can achieve the desired reliability and safe…

>Not counting their initial failures, SpaceX has had a 100% success rate.

And other than the ones that exploded, NASA never lost a shuttle.

Re: SpaceX wins $440M contract with NASA to develop Space Shuttle successor

#112
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of Musk's original goals was to do it 10x cheaper, and accd to his recent discussion with NPR, he's already at 1/8th of the cost(1). What an amazing accomplishment. 1. http://www.npr.org/2012/05/18/153015277/on-eve-of-launch-spa...

I commend SpaceX for the work they've done to reduce the costs, but it's not particularly fair to compare to the Shuttle program for several reasons: 1) SpaceX employs engineers who worked on the Shuttle, thus getting all of their lessons learned for free. 2) SpaceX gets to use facilities NASA built, like launchpads and testing facilities much more cheaply than if they had to build their own facilities. They tested t…

If I remember my history correctly, the original shuttle objectives were compromised by US intelligence interests that required the shuttle to attain certain latitudes that were good for launching intel assets? If so, the shuttle program could have been a lot cheaper?

Re: SpaceX wins $440M contract with NASA to develop Space Shuttle successor

#113
post #20

It is easy to use superlatives like "safest rocket ever designed". But a lot of stuff can go wrong - fast - when you're sitting on a big pile of potential explosives that under other circumstances you'd keep a safe distance from. Until they actually achieve it, you shouldn't throw the superlatives around. I will be the first to applaud if SpaceX achieves this goal. I am certain that they want to achieve this goal. Bu…

Here's why it's likely the manned Dragon capsule will be one of the safest manned spacecraft in history. First, the Falcon 9 so far has a 100% success rate. The rocket engines are designed to be able to handle having a stainless steel nut pass through the fuel lines without shutting down. More so the vehicle is designed to be able to withstand an engine exploding, even at launch, without damaging the other engines an…

> More so the vehicle is designed to be able to withstand an engine exploding, even at launch, without damaging the other engines and without preventing the launcher from reaching orbit.

That is absolutely incredible. Gives new meaning to the phrase "over-engineered" (and not in a bad way).

Do you know off the top of your head what's the failure rate for a generic launch? How much is it saying that the Falcon is at 100% so far?

Re: SpaceX wins $440M contract with NASA to develop Space Shuttle successor

#115
post #33

I'm impressed that there's $440M left in NASA (or over $1 Billion with Sierra Nevada and Boeing included) to fund a new space shuttle, somehow I was under the false impression that there wouldn't be any more of that type of thing. Hats off, Elon Musk. Hats. Off.

It's a travesty that Boeing got more than SpaceX, and Sierra Nevada got any money at all. I can't wait to see those two bloated, horrifically managed behemoths fail miserable with the money. The only reason NASA gave them anything was to shut up the congressman Boeing and Sierra have in their pockets. Remember this, because SpaceX, with slightly less money than Boeing, will produce FAR, FAR more.

Sierra Nevada and SpaceX have almost the same number of employees. So not sure why you think they're bloated and SpaceX isn't.

Personally I'm happy NASA spread the money around. The last thing we need is the government to simply build another Boeing or Lockheed. And by that I mean: if SpaceX has 100% of the market because of NASAs funding, I fully expect them to stop competing on price (at some point).

Re: SpaceX wins $440M contract with NASA to develop Space Shuttle successor

#116
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not counting their initial failures, SpaceX has had a 100% success rate. And each rocket was so significantly different from the previous rocket[1], that it's more fair to say they had 3 rocket models with 100% failure, rather than one model with 60% failure rate. And the Falcon 9 has a 100% success rate. And they were awarded this contract, so obviously NASA believes they can achieve the desired reliability and safe…

>Not counting their initial failures, SpaceX has had a 100% success rate. And other than the ones that exploded, NASA never lost a shuttle.

That's not what I'm saying at all. Every shuttle was designed the same. Every F1 that failed had a different design, and the company's policies and practices changed drastically over that time as well. You can't compare it to an established program with intermittent failures.

Re: SpaceX wins $440M contract with NASA to develop Space Shuttle successor

#117
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, the largest cost is building a whole new structure. With a fully reusable rocket (as SpaceX is going to use), the only costs are fuel and maintenance, which is more expensive than an airplane (~$50k per flight, IIRC), but negligible compared to the initial cost of designing and building the structure. Could you imagine if airplanes were single use? There would no way Southwest could achieve a 45-minute turn…

> With a fully reusable rocket (as SpaceX is going to use) This is the sort of thing where you need to be careful with what you infer, the the sort of thing that often causes engineers to be overconfident in performance and reliability estimates.In reality, they're doing some very initial experiments in vertical landing with a view towards exploring reusability. That is different to your implication that reusability…

It's the lack of full-scale, realistic tests of complete systems that cause problems. There's just not the money for it nowadays. For example, Orion's crew vehicle had budgeted 2 aeroplane parachute drop tests. Apollo's landing module had over 230. Interestingly, they recorded anomalies on over 210 of those.

I would argue that modern designs that learn from the mistakes of past designs require less testing. Maybe it takes 230 drops to understand the aerodynamics of a falling capsule, but once the knowledge is obtained, it only takes 2 to verify a new capsule works as good as the old one.

As for simulations, well one of the catch-phrases in the rocket engine business is 'plumbing never leaks in simulations'.

So why not simulate leaky plumbing? Computer modeling has come a very long way over time.

'You ain't tested it till you've tested it', he said.... The space of possible failures rises exponentially with the number of parts, when you consider all the ways they can interact.

True, but each new failure requires a series of events more complex than previous failures. You're using a bunch of examples of old failures to imply that new designs will fail in the same way, when the reality is that new designs have the benefit of learning from every single previous failure, and every subsequent failure further increases the reliability of the system.

I'm reminded of Asimov's essay, The Relativity of Wrong[0]. Despite your experience in the field, it seems you're too eager to assume that every new idea can be just as wrong as the previous one. Sure, new space vehicle designs like those from SpaceX may fail in ways we couldn't predict, but that is completely different from saying that they'll be less safe or less reliable than their predecessors, or that they have to fail in all the same ways as their predecessors first in order to prove their success.

[0] http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm

Re: SpaceX wins $440M contract with NASA to develop Space Shuttle successor

#118
post #20

It is easy to use superlatives like "safest rocket ever designed". But a lot of stuff can go wrong - fast - when you're sitting on a big pile of potential explosives that under other circumstances you'd keep a safe distance from. Until they actually achieve it, you shouldn't throw the superlatives around. I will be the first to applaud if SpaceX achieves this goal. I am certain that they want to achieve this goal. Bu…

You speak as though you are not a fan of SpaceX. Care to explain why?

Re: SpaceX wins $440M contract with NASA to develop Space Shuttle successor

#119
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, they said the Titanic would be un sinkable, not less sinkable than previously developed ships.

Actually White Star claimed it was "designed to be unsinkable", not that it was. And this was after describing a long list of safety features. It's a very dangerous attitude, to claim a priori that your design is safer. The Titanic was so safe that it was not necessary to carry enough life boats for all the passengers. That's how safe it was. Once your focus is on the incredible confidence you have in the safety of y…

That's a little unfair on the Titanic designers.

Prior to the Titanic sinking, most ships didn't carry enough lifeboats for the passengers on board. This is was because the SOP was to ferry passengers to nearby boats if a ship was in trouble.

Now, the problem with the Titanic was that there were elements of hubris in the first sailing, and probably recklessness on that part of the captain. Like any big disaster, it was a cascading failure. But they didn't underquip it with lifeboats because they thought it wouldn't sink. They underequipped it because that's what was the norm at the time.

Probably the thing that changed the most with the Titanic sinking was the fact that plenty of important people went down with the ship, plus the sheer number of people lost.

Re: SpaceX wins $440M contract with NASA to develop Space Shuttle successor

#120
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is almost nothing. The surface of the Earth spins at almost ~450 m/s near the equator and that's being some ~6300 km from the center. Climbing up another 10 km is not going to appreciably change your horizontal velocity.

Now extrapolate my argument to the difference between the beach at the Dead Sea and the launch point for earth-orbiting payloads on a space elevator.

Let us know how building that space elevator goes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2M73aXuORI

Post reply on HN