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TikTok says it's not the algorithm, teens are just pro-Palestine

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Re: TikTok says it's not the algorithm, teens are just pro-Palestine

#111

Post by parineum »

netsharc wrote: post #36
ToucanLoucan wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It probably doesn't hurt that this is basically exactly what America did following the 9/11 attacks, which while certainly horrific, brutal, and warranted a response, launched us straight into an armed conflict that afflicted somewhere between 200 and 600 thousand deaths on a completely unrelated populace while plunging an entire middle eastern state into near total anarchy that it has yet to entirely recover from, a…

Arguably Bin Laden got a great ROI on 9/11, what was his budget to train 20 terrorists, and the Dubya/Cheney/Rumsfeld response was lots of trillions of dollars, sending a lot of young Americans to death and disability, and a world that grew to hate the US even more (not just the Muslim world; Europe too, remember "Freedom Fries"?). And damn, 20 years later who runs Afghanistan? Taliban, with surplus Humvees. So yeah,…

> Arguably Bin Laden got a great ROI on 9/11

Arguably? If anyone argues against that they're wrong. Bin Laden accomplished his objectives and beyond.

The US objectives weren't to deny Bin Laden his though, they were to kill Bin Laden (and topple Sadam, for some reason). Both of which we also accomplished.

The half hearted nation building was a facade and led to the quagmire and chaos that ensued.

Re: TikTok says it's not the algorithm, teens are just pro-Palestine

#112

Post by wolverine876 »

GuardianCaveman wrote: post #53
lalajollyton wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel is bombing and murdering thousands of Palestinians. That is why people are supporting them, not an algorithm "problem".

Ww2 Japan was bombed by the United States and thousands died after they launched a surprise attack which killed thousands of Americans including hundreds of civilians. Palestine launched a surprise attack killing thousands and now they face the same thing.

The US didn't bomb Japan in retaliation for Pearl Harbor, but to accomplish a military objective. Also, past errors, to the extent there were any, are not valid reasons for current ones - otherwise we'd quickly have no laws or morality at all.

The Law of Armed Conflict (LOAC), which is taken very seriously by militaries, requires distinguishing between military and civilian people and assets, only pursuing military targets and objectives, and when civilians will be harmed, requires that it be in proportion to the military benefit.

Here are a couple of links. The first is the authoritative International Committee of the Red Cross's very usable LOAC page, and the second is the application of it to the Gaza war by leading experts:

https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v1

https://www.justsecurity.org/89489/expert-guidance-law-of-ar...

Re: TikTok says it's not the algorithm, teens are just pro-Palestine

#113

Post by eesmith »

op00to wrote: post #28
ketzo wrote: post #4

I mean, young people have been dramatically more pro-Palestine since long before social media. Grain of salt and all, but I don’t think it’s a wild claim on its face, especially once you account for the nature of network effects / filter bubbles.

Do you have any data to back up that assertion? As a teenager of the 90s, we were not all that globally conscious.

As a teenager of the 80s, we were conscious of apartheid in South Africa and the boycotts thereof, and of the starvation in Ethiopia ("We Are The World").

I remember reading the newspaper about the Shining Path in Peru, and about the Iran-Iraq War.

The Falkland Islands War was a big one. The school librarian had a map open showing where the British Navy was on their way down.

Right! Glasnot, and perestroika in Russia, and the Solidarity movement in Poland. And the German teen who flew into Moscow and landed on Red Square.

Ferdinand Marcos going into exile, and his wife's bajillion shoes.

Tienanmen Square.

Oh, and of course the fall of the Berlin Wall back in 1989.

Israel has had a larger prominence in the US mind because of it being the Holy Land. I know people who went there to see where Jesus lived, for example. We also had some teens from a kibbutz visit our high school and talk about their life.

In addition to the newspaper, and the TV news shows, my family subscribed to National Geographic, and well remember https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghan_Girl , a refugee from the Soviet-Afghan war.

How much more global do you need?

Re: TikTok says it's not the algorithm, teens are just pro-Palestine

#114

Post by wolverine876 »

tehjoker wrote: post #9
everdrive wrote: post #6

I don’t trust TikTok, but that’s not the same thing as saying they’re never capable of telling the truth. I find this claim plausible on its face, but I’m not sure any of us have any way to confirm or deny it.

frankly, given the major media is in the tank for Israeli war crimes, I wouldn't care if TikTok was biased in the opposite direction, but they probably aren't. Youth are far more sympathetic to Palestine on nearly every survey.

> the major media is in the tank for Israeli war crimes

I don't see that, or not the major media that I see. Which sources? The NYT, for example, has covered all aspects and its opinion page has been critical and skeptical of Israel.

Re: TikTok says it's not the algorithm, teens are just pro-Palestine

#115

Post by hunter-gatherer »

cto_of_antifa wrote: post #69
GuardianCaveman wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ww2 Japan was bombed by the United States and thousands died after they launched a surprise attack which killed thousands of Americans including hundreds of civilians. Palestine launched a surprise attack killing thousands and now they face the same thing.

Terrible example, since the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were also extremely unethical

A lot happened before those two bombs were dropped, so how would you articulate your stance about those I wonder? Axis and Allies were bombing each other all over the place. Plenty of cities (in Japan, since you hyper focused on the nuclear bombs) were devastated and wrought with bombings before.

Re: TikTok says it's not the algorithm, teens are just pro-Palestine

#116

Post by parineum »

There are 3 distinct positions one can take in this situation that all get wrapped up together and cause people to talk past each other.

You can support Israel.

You can support Palestine.

You can support Hamas.

Not wanting Palestinians to die by the hands of Israelis is conflated with Pro-Hamas by Israel supporters.

I categorically don't support Hamas while also being incredibly skeptical of Israel's current actions but I'm also familiar with the various bad faith efforts at peace from both Israel and Palestinians that have bolstered Hamas.

The people that leave a bad taste in my mouth are the ones all in for any if those three groups that fail to see their shortcomings. Luckily I don't think there are that many of those but I do think that the Hamas/Palestine side of that is primarily the young left and the Israel side is primarily older but still, both are a vocal minority.

Re: TikTok says it's not the algorithm, teens are just pro-Palestine

#117

Post by xk_id »

hypeit wrote: post #103
xk_id wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> muslims' characteristic style of graphic violence I think it's this type of rhetoric and thinking that young people are generally against. You malign an entire religion and call them violent. It's also hypocritical considering how many people the west has violently murdered.

[flagged]

Re: TikTok says it's not the algorithm, teens are just pro-Palestine

#118

Post by wolverine876 »

xyzelement wrote: post #37
lalajollyton wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Supporting Palestinians is nothing like the Tide pod challenge. Anyone who cares about human right should be extremely concerned about what Israel is doing right now.

It’s actually quite simple. Israel was out of Gaza for years prior to Oct 7. On Oct 7, Hamas targeted over 1.5 thousand civilians including babies and the aged for slaughter and kidnapping. Resulting in a military operation to suppress Hamas. So yes if your level of nuance on this is “Israel is hurting human rights, ceasefire now” and you are oblivious to who broke the ceasefire and how, then it’s not that different…

The situation has no good answers, and Hamas committed murder, but this part is not the truth:

> Israel was out of Gaza for years prior to Oct 7

Israel has conducted military actions in Gaza, but more significantly, they've blockaded Gaza, turning into a ghetto, since the 2000s. They control the Gaza economy and much more. It's not like the Sinai Desert that Israel left decades ago and has no influence in.

Re: TikTok says it's not the algorithm, teens are just pro-Palestine

#119

Post by xk_id »

catlover76 wrote: post #109
xk_id wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> make no mistake, supporting palestinians is not really different from supporting the evil of the Oct 7th attac Yeah this is morally reprehensible and idiotic. If you can't see why, then I guess you can keep scratching your head and wondering why more and more people are adopting precisely the view you hate, and pretending that it's TikTok's "fault" people are being "manipulated" or "brainwashed", as opposed to real…

[flagged]

Re: TikTok says it's not the algorithm, teens are just pro-Palestine

#120

Post by xyzelement »

explaininjs wrote: post #105
xyzelement wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure look at the chart in your link called people killed per year. That number was very low between 2014 and 2023 until the ceasefire was shatters by hamas this October

So is your argument that Palestinians should have been fine with hundreds of their people being killed by Israelis every year from 2015-2022, because it was less than the thousands of Palestinians killed by Israelis in 2014? And furthermore that none of those deaths gave justification for the 1200 Israelis killed by Palestinians this year, but those deaths somehow justify the 10,000 Palestinians killed by Israelis th…

I don’t see this as an eye for an eye bullshit so not sure what “justification” you are talking about. There was calm then there was an incursion that targeted civilians followed by military operation to root out Hamas.

Non Hamas Palestinians are obviously caught in the crossfire

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