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Young people would sacrifice other perks for a 4-day workweek

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Re: Young people would sacrifice other perks for a 4-day workweek

#111

Post by LeanderK »

I've seen some strange criticisms after a friend of mine transitioned to a 4-day week. Like whether he has any ambitions, doesn't want to work etc. He is a very committed, good programmer really kinda keeping the company running. I bet he gets more stuff done in 4 days than others in 5. But he has a very active private, social life. He goes a lot on vacations, has hobbies or is just actively enjoying life. He's also in europe so quite a bit of vacation.

Programmers usually have a comfortable salary, even with 80% you're still above average and have a lot of disposable income. Maybe a smaller apartment but who cares.

He has such an enormous quality of life that I kinda suspect that all the ones got it wrong. In the end life is not about grinding for the man, it's just a means to an end. They should justify themselves, not him. It's also really stupid considering how committed he is, he just has a rich life besides work. I see others just working inefficiently, trying to dodge responsibility and being kinda lazy. But he get's criticised.

Re: Young people would sacrifice other perks for a 4-day workweek

#112

Post by bzudo »

trident5000 wrote: post #71
doctorwho42 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is wanting to live less than an hour commute to work "the most niche place on earth"? Most people I know are renting because they can't afford anything within an hour commute and we have grown up hearing and seeing the pains of the commuter life. So why saddle ourselves with both a 30 year mortgage for a overpriced home that will also drain us of 10+hrs/week

Sounds like a lifestyle choice. Stop packing into cities like a can of sardines and it wont be an issue. Being inflexible to literal physics and reality is a personal issue.

Cool. Let me work remote.

Re: Young people would sacrifice other perks for a 4-day workweek

#113

Post by vladvasiliu »

ramraj07 wrote: post #75
vladvasiliu wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A 4 day work week today means working 4 days a week for the same money as a person working 5 days a week Sure, but you'll have even less hope for a salary increase next year, since this is basically what it is. This was the theory behind France's move to the 35-hour workweek, too. They also expected companies to hire more people to compensate for less work being done. Didn't work out as expected.

What happened in France? The way I see it, as programmers we will be far more productive working fewer days per week and just taking more time to relax. If this assumption is accurate you have to do nothing to compensate.

Sure, I think there's a big difference between programmers (and similar) and the situation in France at the time, when most people affected by this were factory workers, who didn't have themselves much influence over how productive they were (aside from the obvious issues of not showing up / slacking off).

Basically, "nothing" happened. The expected drop in unemployment never materialized. And although pay rises never were an expected effect of the change (from what I know), they were negatively impacted.

I'm not knowledgeable enough in those matters, so I may be off base, but it would seem that companies started to be less "competitive" when the rule started to be applied, in 2000-2002. But from what I've read on the subject, none of the sides (for and against the measure) can prove that it was undoubtedly a good or a bad thing.

> The way I see it, as programmers we will be far more productive working fewer days per week and just taking more time to relax. If this assumption is accurate you have to do nothing to compensate.

I agree with this. Unfortunately, I'm not in a position to make this kind of decision. And it's pretty clear to me that many managers don't think this way, and somehow figure that your productivity is roughly constant and proportional to the time your butt spends in your seat (at least up to a point).

Re: Young people would sacrifice other perks for a 4-day workweek

#114

Post by digdugdirk »

slashdev wrote: post #48
onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #7

Young people don't want to work hard because there's little incentive. No matter how hard you work, unless you're in the top 5%, you're far priced out of most places most people want to live. You can afford everything comfortably beside housing & health care (which you don't need much of when you're young) on a relatively low wage in the US. So you've pretty much given up on housing. What's the point in working hard?

It's not for everybody, but if you can find a way to not play the rigged game, you can get ahead. I moved from a high cost of living city in North America to Latin America. I bought a two floor penthouse overlooking the ocean for less than the price of a two bedroom apartment back where I came from. My mortgage is -$2000 / month. That's right, negative $2000 because I save the full mortgage payment plus an extra $200…

Can you explain more about what you're doing with the mortgage payment and taxes?

Re: Young people would sacrifice other perks for a 4-day workweek

#115

Post by ripply »

yardie wrote: post #12

Moving back to the US after living abroad I was used to month long holidays. I applied to a few companies and tried to negotiate 5 weeks PTO. They wouldn't budge. Then 4 weeks. Still no. I offered to drop my salary in exchange for vacation. Still no. I asked HR why everything else was negotiable except PTO and they told me I would have more time off then people who've been there for 7+ years. This was my first clue t…

This is the one thing I really hate about American work culture. It really is pervasive throughout the economy, capitalism here optimizes for money over happiness and there just aren’t many companies that are willing to release their grip on you. My employer is now trying to transition to three days a week in the office and the reasoning is totally capitalistic even though it will most likely reduce overall happiness, they also will not approve a month off PTO even though it’s apparently unlimited, the reasoning was basically “we don’t work that way”.

So many things are wrong with American work culture and there’s nothing most people can do about it.

Re: Young people would sacrifice other perks for a 4-day workweek

#116

Post by zerr »

yardie wrote: post #12

Moving back to the US after living abroad I was used to month long holidays. I applied to a few companies and tried to negotiate 5 weeks PTO. They wouldn't budge. Then 4 weeks. Still no. I offered to drop my salary in exchange for vacation. Still no. I asked HR why everything else was negotiable except PTO and they told me I would have more time off then people who've been there for 7+ years. This was my first clue t…

Asking for more pay with their standard PTO and as-needed UTO (Unpaid Time Off) might have been more successful.

Re: Young people would sacrifice other perks for a 4-day workweek

#117

Post by jkestner »

mhb wrote: post #14
onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #7

Young people don't want to work hard because there's little incentive. No matter how hard you work, unless you're in the top 5%, you're far priced out of most places most people want to live. You can afford everything comfortably beside housing & health care (which you don't need much of when you're young) on a relatively low wage in the US. So you've pretty much given up on housing. What's the point in working hard?

The Ants and the Grasshopper - Aesop https://read.gov/aesop/052.html

More like A Bug's Life.

Re: Young people would sacrifice other perks for a 4-day workweek

#118

Post by dkdbejwi383 »

medo-bear wrote: post #73
dkdbejwi383 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm Australian but have lived in Europe for a long time. When I begin to consider moving back, one of the things that puts me off is that 4 weeks is pretty much universal in Australia, plus in Australia I think it's pretty standard to have a fixed number of days you're allowed to be sick. I'm too used to having 6 weeks holidays and essentially unlimited sick leave (as long as it's legitimately required). It's a more…

as far as worker rights go, i think australian workers have it better than in most countries. in places in eu like austria you even have "sicky police" that go to check up on you when you are sick. lol i dont think something like this would fly in 'straya. to be clear im not talking about full on compo and insurance companies hiring private investigators. im talking about calling your boss and telling him/her that yo…

> in europe? im actually the opposite. i miss the great variety of great restaurants in sydney and melbourne

Yeah that's what I mean - harder to get good east Asian and Middle Eastern in Europe - although there's more African food here (Europe) than straya.

Re: Young people would sacrifice other perks for a 4-day workweek

#119

Post by dukeyukey »

e1g wrote: post #69
tansan wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's a more grown-up arrangement where businesses realise that regular time off (and as much time as you need if ill) increases happiness and therefore productivity. Is there a metric of some sort that I can share with other people that demonstrates 4 weeks PTO does work and has led to increased productivity in Australia? I personally believe in shorter work weeks, but my experience is anecdotal, so was wondering i…

As an Australian, the only metric that matters for me is >80% of all semi-competent developers, designers, and founders I knew (including myself) left AU because they hit a career ceiling normalized by that culture. Zero local innovation, and the relatively healthy economy is mostly due to exporting stuff to Asia (education, tourism, and resources).

Australia innovates plenty, it's just the innovation mostly happens in fields Australia does well, like mining.

Re: Young people would sacrifice other perks for a 4-day workweek

#120

Post by jwells89 »

culopatin wrote: post #74
onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #7

Young people don't want to work hard because there's little incentive. No matter how hard you work, unless you're in the top 5%, you're far priced out of most places most people want to live. You can afford everything comfortably beside housing & health care (which you don't need much of when you're young) on a relatively low wage in the US. So you've pretty much given up on housing. What's the point in working hard?

My theory is that compared to people in the 60s say, there are more things to do with your free time now, to the point where they are sometimes in conflict. Before you’d get home and all you could do was have a beer and maybe watch tv, listen to the radio, read a book. Now we are so connected to so many things, and we know about all the activities possible around us through social media, that work is in the way. Work…

Indeed. The list of things I want to do is so long that the only way I could ever make a dent in it is if I were to become financially independent and not need to work. That’s maybe a possibility in my particular case if I’m smart, but not remotely realistic for most people.
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