Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free • Hacker News Board

Re: Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free

#111

Post by brewdad » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 5:24 PM UTC

kogus wrote: post #74

Making public colleges free isn't... free. The perception is often that public universities are already getting most of their money from the state or federal government, so why not just close the gap. But the typical funding level is between 40-50%. The remaining 50-60% is currently covered by tuition and philanthropic giving. So closing the gap to make universities free to the public would involve (in most cases) mo…

Those funding levels you are talking about used to be the norm until "trickle down" become the holy grail of fiscal policy. There's no reason we couldn't return to those funding levels.

Re: Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free

#112

Post by omginternets » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 5:24 PM UTC

BobaFloutist wrote: post #96

omginternets wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's telling that people aren't willing to contend with the corollary of "free education" and "free healthcare": limited capacity. Edit: I should probably mention that I'm generally in favor of state-funded education, for a variety of reasons.

Why does it work in other countries? I know we have a larger population, but surely that applies just as much to our ability to scale up supply as it does to the inherent increase in demand? The United States is uniquely bad at covering the costs of health care and education, compared to its economic peers. Why is that?

>Why does it work in other countries?

Of course it works in other countries; public education, like public healthcare, is an extremely good idea. This having been said, there are currently heated debates in most of Western Europe about the economic feasibility of educating every citizen to a post-secondary level, let alone every immigrant. Moreover, in France (the European country I know best), you are generally permitted to obtain one state-funded degree, and not two. The point here is simply that a discussion of publicly-funded higher education has to be accompanied by some discussion of limitations.

Re: Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free

#113

Post by mseidl » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 5:28 PM UTC

ARandomerDude wrote: post #93

I’m amazed by how many people use the word “free” to mean “pay even more tax for the rest of your life.”

Everybody knows it's not free. But it's much better when it's much cheaper or free at the point of use.

I'm from Germany that also lived in the US. I paid 300-400$ out of pocket for a 30 minute surgery with just a local anesthesia. In Germany I paid 40 euros for 30 minutes with full anesthesia 3 days in the hospital. I also had weekly check ups for 3-4 months at no out of pocket cost.

An American coworker here at had a 3-4 month old kid that had a lump on her back. Next day pediatrician. Next day oncologist. First chemo within 10 days. Never paid anything out of pocket.

Re: Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free

#114

Post by toast0 » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 5:28 PM UTC

latchkey wrote: post #97

toast0 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'd need to consider the state military and education budgets as well.

You think that won't improve the argument?

If the argument is the US spends more on military than education, and we only look at federal numbers, it's an incomplete and misleading accounting.

States spend a lot on education, and not a lot on state military. This article claims California's 2022-2023 budget includes $128 Billion for education [1]. For 2018-2019, the California Military Department budget was $233 Million [2]. If other states are similar (and I think they are), state education budgets are significant relative to federal budget and make a difference in comparing the balance of spending; state military budgets are relatively small, but should be included for a more complete accounting regardless.

[1] https://edsource.org/2022/californias-new-budget-includes-hi...

[2] https://lao.ca.gov/Publications/Report/3743

Re: Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free

#115

Post by bjelkeman-again » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 5:29 PM UTC

ARandomerDude wrote: post #93

I’m amazed by how many people use the word “free” to mean “pay even more tax for the rest of your life.”

I probably pay more tax than you do (based on your comment).

I live in Sweden, in Europe. For that I (and everyone around me) have free school up to and including university studies (actually I would get paid USD 330 in grants, up to 240 weeks, plus the ability to take a loan, neither which I have to use for tuition fees).

I have nearly free health care and medicine (max costs for 12 months $120 and $230 respectively). Subsidised child care, and more.

Cost of living is lower in Sweden [1] rather than in the US, as a comparison (partially because the Swedish currency has dropped in value). But I don’t have to go bankrupt just because I got cancer and didn’t have a good health insurance or sign up for a massive debt to get a university education.

[1] https://livingcost.org/cost/sweden/united-states

https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_countries_resu...

https://www.mylifeelsewhere.com/cost-of-living/sweden/united...

Re: Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free

#116

Post by jstarfish » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 5:29 PM UTC

sokoloff wrote: post #72

Sohcahtoa82 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wages are based on how easy you are to replace. If a job has a high wage because they require a specific college degree, then making the degree easier to get since you don't have to pay for it, then there will be more people with that degree, so the supply of workers is higher, making them easier to replace, so the wages of those workers goes down.

To whatever extent your concern is backed up by data, that's an argument for making public colleges free rather than an argument against it, IMO. "Today, children of upper middle class families have a path to getting good paying jobs that the poor are largely shut out from. We don't wish for that change by making public universities free, thereby preventing competition for these desirable jobs by the children of the…

It only means that if your goal is to intentionally devalue labor.

You're advocating we toss escapees from the crab bucket back into the bucket because it's not fair to the rest of the crabs.

Re: Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free

#117

Post by elteto » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 5:29 PM UTC

BobaFloutist wrote: post #96

omginternets wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's telling that people aren't willing to contend with the corollary of "free education" and "free healthcare": limited capacity. Edit: I should probably mention that I'm generally in favor of state-funded education, for a variety of reasons.

Why does it work in other countries? I know we have a larger population, but surely that applies just as much to our ability to scale up supply as it does to the inherent increase in demand? The United States is uniquely bad at covering the costs of health care and education, compared to its economic peers. Why is that?

We definitely need a complete overhaul of the US health system, but we don't just "have a larger population". The largest countries in Europe by population (after Russia) are Turkey and Germany with with 85M and 84M, respectively. The US has 331M. That is almost ~4x!

When we say it works in other countries, most of the time we are referring to Europe. And most countries in Europe are tiny in comparison. The US is the 3rd largest country by population.

This is not to say that the US problems are unsolvable, but they will definitely require unique solutions.

Re: Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free

#118

Post by latchkey » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 5:30 PM UTC

xkcd-sucks wrote: post #110

latchkey wrote: post #5

We've been prioritizing military spending over education for decades. I'd love to see even a bit of that swing the other way. I don't think taking a small amount from the military, by requiring them to optimize a few budgets, would be impactful on our nations security.

I also think military spending is generally a horrible waste, but it is important to remember that it is a huge jobs program, not just for "people that can't be educated" but also for the defense industry. For example the growth of the Boston "Metro West" region was driven largely by engineers employed by Lincoln Labs, Raytheon, etc. Also the military runs training programs which are probably more practically results…

Isn't that the GI Bill?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G.I._Bill

Re: Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free

#119

Post by ugh123 » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 5:30 PM UTC

s17n wrote: post #105

As others in the thread have noted, there are two separeate issues here: 1. Young people should be able to get a quality education regardless of their families' financial situation. 2. Everyone should have an equal shot at attaining positions of power in society (not so much for their own good, since almost nobody is going to attain these positions anyway it's a small benefit relative to the total population, as for…

What are the non-merit based criteria you propose?

Re: Stop Arguing over Elite Schools. Just Make Public Colleges Free

#120

Post by sokoloff » Mon, Oct 02, 2023, 5:32 PM UTC

jstarfish wrote: post #116

sokoloff wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To whatever extent your concern is backed up by data, that's an argument for making public colleges free rather than an argument against it, IMO. "Today, children of upper middle class families have a path to getting good paying jobs that the poor are largely shut out from. We don't wish for that change by making public universities free, thereby preventing competition for these desirable jobs by the children of the…

It only means that if your goal is to intentionally devalue labor. You're advocating we toss escapees from the crab bucket back into the bucket because it's not fair to the rest of the crabs.

The alternative can be characterized as trying to keep the lid on the pot to ensure no other crabs escape and charging escaped crabs a fee for their offspring to be able to live outside the pot.