Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

How to Apologize

philomousos.blogspot.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

111–120 of 179 posts

Re: How to Apologize

#111

Post by rtperson »

protomyth wrote: post #99
cheez wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FYI, there is an upscale restaurant where I go regularly for lunch that has only attractive women. (Not Hooters)

There is a difference between a hackathon and a restaurant. There are actually restaurants that hire very good looking men also because they are going for a certain clientele. Sexuality sells a lot of things, but that's hormones and money. The problem here is that a goodly chunk of people expect the clientele of a hackathon to be developers. Developers are men and women who are professional. As much as sexuality sell…

> it is not a accepted selling point of professionals. Rather, it will get you in serious trouble in many professional environments.

Not to defend Sqoot at all, but... um... booth babes? Every large trade show has them. They are there specifically to excite the hormones of the male professionals in attendance. Their use is as sexist as it is effective.

Had Sqoot quietly hired a bunch of models to serve beer to the attendants, and had they had the sense not to publicly high-five themselves for doing so, there would have been no controversy. The reason Sqoot landed in the soup is because they wore their sexism on their sleeves, and handled their communications like obnoxious rubes rather than responsible business owners. Their crime was lack of finesse.

Re: How to Apologize

#112

Post by samth »

mistermann wrote: post #56
samth wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For instance, I might have an opinion that we should bring back slavery. A totally offensive opinion, yes, but dammit, I'm entitled to have it. I think this is confusing two very different things. You are "entitled" to have this opinion in that (a) you shouldn't be locked in prison for stating this opinion and (b) I am not allowed to beat you up for having this opinion. However, that opinion is wrong . You should s…

> but the root problem is the sexism, not the ad copy. I agree it was a very sexist thing to write. It makes me wonder though: 1. Which is worse, hiring an all female serving staff (perhaps wearing uniforms that would be considered particularly attractive to heterosexual males), or acknowledging that you have done this by writing about it in your invitations? Is it inappropriate (always and everywhere) to hire only a…

The point I'm trying to make is that thinking of hiring women staff as a "perk" is sexist and unprofessional, and you shouldn't do it. It assumes that everyone attending is a straight guy, and it also assumes that the straight guys that attend want to be included in your sexual fantasies.

As to the larger society, yes, "Bud Girls", booth babes, GoDaddy ads, and Hooters are all sexist.

Re: How to Apologize

#113

Post by i_cannot_hack »

batista wrote: post #104
samth wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For instance, I might have an opinion that we should bring back slavery. A totally offensive opinion, yes, but dammit, I'm entitled to have it. I think this is confusing two very different things. You are "entitled" to have this opinion in that (a) you shouldn't be locked in prison for stating this opinion and (b) I am not allowed to beat you up for having this opinion. However, that opinion is wrong . You should s…

I think this is confusing two very different things. You are "entitled" to have this opinion in that (a) you shouldn't be locked in prison for stating this opinion and (b) I am not allowed to beat you up for having this opinion. However, that opinion is wrong. You should stop having it, and if you express it at work you will and should be fired. So one is only allowed to have the "right" opinions? And who gets to jud…

> Why something that's ok for, say, a casino or a sports bar (female waitresses) is bad for a hackathon? Because a coding marathon should be for both sexes? Well, aren't casinos for both sexes too? How come they get to have women waitresses? Also, who said the organizers of this PARTICULAR hackathon want it to be?

I think it has a lot to do with expectations. People held the hackaton to a higher standard than, for example, a strip club, and therefore they are a lot more vocal about it when the organizers fail to live up to what was expected of them.

> Is it that they SHOULD want it to be? Is the message that one cannot organize an event the way he likes it, provided he doesn't do anything illegal?

They have all the rights in the world to organize a hackathon the way they want it, but that also means that the general public has all the rights in the world to dislike it, i.e be outraged.

Re: How to Apologize

#114

Post by samth »

batista wrote: post #104
samth wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For instance, I might have an opinion that we should bring back slavery. A totally offensive opinion, yes, but dammit, I'm entitled to have it. I think this is confusing two very different things. You are "entitled" to have this opinion in that (a) you shouldn't be locked in prison for stating this opinion and (b) I am not allowed to beat you up for having this opinion. However, that opinion is wrong . You should s…

I think this is confusing two very different things. You are "entitled" to have this opinion in that (a) you shouldn't be locked in prison for stating this opinion and (b) I am not allowed to beat you up for having this opinion. However, that opinion is wrong. You should stop having it, and if you express it at work you will and should be fired. So one is only allowed to have the "right" opinions? And who gets to jud…

So one is only allowed to have the "right" opinions?

I think it's pretty obvious that everyone should try to have correct ideas. For example, if you think that Mac OS X is the world's most widely-used desktop OS, then you are wrong, and you should revise your thinking on the subject. Similarly, if you think that IP guarantees reliable delivery, you should think something else, because you're not right.

Thinking that it's ok to make people slaves because of the color of their skin (or any other reason) is also wrong, and if you think that (I assume no one on HN does), you should revise your thinking on the subject.

Saying, at work, that you think your coworkers should be made into slaves seems like a pretty obvious firing offense to me.

As for whether an event can be both legal and a bad thing, I think it's pretty obvious that something can -- imagine I organized an event to write patches with backdoors for the linux kernel. If you said you were going to organize an event like that, I would say that you shouldn't do it.

Re: How to Apologize

#115

Post by batista »

i_cannot_hack wrote: post #113
batista wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is confusing two very different things. You are "entitled" to have this opinion in that (a) you shouldn't be locked in prison for stating this opinion and (b) I am not allowed to beat you up for having this opinion. However, that opinion is wrong. You should stop having it, and if you express it at work you will and should be fired. So one is only allowed to have the "right" opinions? And who gets to jud…

> Why something that's ok for, say, a casino or a sports bar (female waitresses) is bad for a hackathon? Because a coding marathon should be for both sexes? Well, aren't casinos for both sexes too? How come they get to have women waitresses? Also, who said the organizers of this PARTICULAR hackathon want it to be? I think it has a lot to do with expectations. People held the hackaton to a higher standard than, for ex…

I think it has a lot to do with expectations. People held the hackaton to a higher standard than, for example, a strip club, and therefore they are a lot more vocal about it when the organizers fail to live up to what was expected of them.

Maybe. For me a hackathon is a pointless thing, like a "machismo" competition for nerds.

They have all the rights in the world to organize a hackathon the way they want it, but that also means that the general public has all the rights in the world to dislike it, i.e be outraged.

Well, with that I fully agree.

Re: How to Apologize

#116

Post by cgoddard »

rtperson wrote: post #111
protomyth wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a difference between a hackathon and a restaurant. There are actually restaurants that hire very good looking men also because they are going for a certain clientele. Sexuality sells a lot of things, but that's hormones and money. The problem here is that a goodly chunk of people expect the clientele of a hackathon to be developers. Developers are men and women who are professional. As much as sexuality sell…

> it is not a accepted selling point of professionals. Rather, it will get you in serious trouble in many professional environments. Not to defend Sqoot at all, but... um... booth babes? Every large trade show has them. They are there specifically to excite the hormones of the male professionals in attendance. Their use is as sexist as it is effective. Had Sqoot quietly hired a bunch of models to serve beer to the at…

Just because a form of sexism is pervasive doesn't mean it isn't also offensive and demeaning to people. Part of being professional and encouraging diversity is not promoting a frat-like or male-dominated business culture.

Re: How to Apologize

#117

Post by timwiseman »

CoffeeDregs wrote: post #107
DanielBMarkham wrote: post #11

This is good, and I like it, but I wonder if we're not painting this in too much black-and-white. It's certainly possible to feel sorry that you expressed your opinions in ways that others found offensive, without feeling sorry you had those opinions. In this case you are really sorry about your choice of words, not the intent of your message. That's okay. It doesn't have to be one way or the other. I'm not going to…

You're a very well regarded HNer, so I'm not happy writing a critique of your comment [ >I very well may be sorry that I brought [slavery] >up on MLK day, but I'm not really sorry for >feeling the way I do You can't apologize for making someone feel badly about something if you still hold that something to be true. Using your MLK/slavery example, why are you apologizing? You are apologizing because you empathize with…

You can't apologize for making someone feel badly about something if you still hold that something to be true.

You can if what you are apologizing for is the way or time you expressed it. Slavery is probably a controversial example because almost everyone now will agree it is morally wrong. But even absolute facts can be offensive at the wrong time.

For instance, I think more people should be aware of the extent of the dangers of drowning and the right ways to prevent it. It would be insensitive at best if I started discussing that during the funeral of a young child that had drowned. It is a good message to get out, but it would be appropriate for me to apoloize for bringing up in that context.

Re: How to Apologize

#118

Post by batista »

samth wrote: post #114
batista wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is confusing two very different things. You are "entitled" to have this opinion in that (a) you shouldn't be locked in prison for stating this opinion and (b) I am not allowed to beat you up for having this opinion. However, that opinion is wrong. You should stop having it, and if you express it at work you will and should be fired. So one is only allowed to have the "right" opinions? And who gets to jud…

So one is only allowed to have the "right" opinions? I think it's pretty obvious that everyone should try to have correct ideas. For example, if you think that Mac OS X is the world's most widely-used desktop OS, then you are wrong, and you should revise your thinking on the subject. Similarly, if you think that IP guarantees reliable delivery, you should think something else , because you're not right. Thinking that…

> I think it's pretty obvious that everyone should try to have correct ideas. For example, if you think that Mac OS X is the world's most widely-used desktop OS, then you are wrong, and you should revise your thinking on the subject. Similarly, if you think that IP guarantees reliable delivery, you should think something else, because you're not right.

That about factual correctness. Another ballgame altogether.

Whether a hackathon should have female waitresses or not is an ethical/moral issue. In any case, not something that can be objectively counted and checked.

Re: How to Apologize

#119

Post by hzay »

"They probably shouldn't quote the line that made everyone mad (it will make the readers mad all over again)."

That doesn't sound very honest, and I thought the post was about being honest while apologizing. I think quoting the offensive line shows spunk. One could easily argue that not citing it and hiding behind vague words like "something stupid and sexist" will offend people.

Re: How to Apologize

#120

Post by cgoddard »

orblivion wrote: post #57
ttt_ wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two points: 1) I don't like when people are so sensitive that there's no room for a harmless joke. The joke might seem harmless to you (because your are privileged[1] to think so), but it doesn't mean it is for everyone. Also, if the joke is based on any kind of prejudice (the teller being aware of it or not), it is in fact harmfull as it only helps the status quo, while a number a groups are putting tremendous effor…

Though I'm generally turned off by the use of the word "privilege", I actually don't disagree with you on either point. 1) I'm not saying this is a harmless joke. I'm saying that I'm afraid that actual harmless jokes will fall prey to the backlash against ones like this. I anticipate that there will be another story at some point where an actual funny, but edgy, joke will be told and I will have to find myself on the…

Behavior and humor in professional, work environments need to be held to a different standard than what might fly just between a group of friends or in a bar. In such an environment even usually harmless jokes contribute to a subtle if not overt sexist atmosphere which discourages female participation. Sure, there are always going to be some aggressive, driven women who will enter the field anyways and excel, but there are lots of other women who will end up being turned away, believe it or not.
Post reply on HN